Sam Vander Wielen: [00:00:10] Hey there, and welcome back to another episode of On Your Terms. I’m so excited to be here with you today. I cannot believe it’s the end of April. I was sitting, eating my lunch today, and I was looking out at our backyard, and we live on the water, so sometimes, we attract like really cool birds, and animals, and all this kind of stuff, and we had the two coolest, I don’t know if they are hawks or eagles.

It’s so hard to tell the difference, sometimes, but we have some really cool neighbors who I’m going to ask about this later, I’m going to show them the video. So, I was just sitting there, and watching them, and like eating my lunch, and just soaking it in. I was getting very excited for spring. So, hopefully, by the time you’re listening to this, we are in warm weather land.

I am so excited to bring you this episode today. Today, I invited on in the final of my three-part series talking about evergreen content, teaching you how to market your business in a way that doesn’t burn you out, and gets you like maximum return for your energy and investment. I wanted to end the series with a chat with my friend and someone who I work with, Frannie, who is the Owner and Creator of Elevate Her Marketing, a marketing agency, which I’ll tell you about more in a second later.

But they are brilliant at helping people run Facebook ads. And Facebook ads are just a really, in my opinion, necessary part of this conversation when we’re talking about growing a business like this online, because from my perspective, it wouldn’t be sustainable for me to do this at this level and get the amount of exposure that my content often gets without ads, right?

Because I don’t want to be on my phone constantly, I don’t want to be on social media constantly, I don’t want to be producing 8 million Reels and doing all the trendy stuff, I want to focus on evergreen content, do some of the fun stuff, and then have ads do some of the lifting for me. But I think that there are so many like myths about ads, there are so many misconceptions.

I mean, I get it all, because I have people who falsely think that my business like relies on ads, like a lot, when, in fact, it’s actually a small percentage of it and most of my sales still come from organic marketing. But I also have people who say to me like, “Oh, I could never start ads or like I’m nowhere near it, because I don’t make what you make”, and it’s like you don’t have to make what I make to start ads, but you also don’t have to do ads at all.

So, it’s just a very interesting conversation. Frannie and I had a great conversation today all about Facebook ads, and like who is the perfect candidate for Facebook ads, what you need to have in place if you want to run Facebook ads, some of the things that are the most common mistakes that she sees on her end. And we played a fun game, from my perspective, of the common like ad myths and thoughts, right? Like ads are really expensive, or ads only work if you sell this or that, or they don’t work if you sell this or that. So, we went through it all today.

And more than anything, I think a common theme you’re going to hear in this episode, and if you’ve listened to the other two episodes in this series, the interview with Katie Steckly and the interview with Natasha, then I think you’re probably picking up on a theme of people encouraging you to go the long haul, to take a long-haul approach in your business. And if you’ve been around for a bit and you watch my content or listen to my stuff, then you know that that is very much an approach that I have adopted. I think it’s been really helpful not only for the growth and success of my business, but for my like mental health and wellbeing as well.

So, if you’re somebody who is looking to build a business for the long haul, you want this thing to work for you for a long time, you’re sick of creating content, that’s what I call toilet content, just goes right down the toilet as soon as you create it, or you feel like you’re killing yourself to get all of this content out there, but no one’s seeing it, no one’s engaging with it, I would definitely recommend listening to all three of these episodes, episode 36, 38, and now, this one, 40, with Frannie. And so, I hope you enjoy it. I had such a great time chatting with her.

Before we get into my interview with Frannie, I just want to formally introduce her. So, Frannie is a Cape Cod native who lives in Portugal, running her fully remote global Facebook and Instagram advertising agency, Elevate Her Marketing. EHM’s mission is to increase women’s income and improve their lives by helping them grow their online course businesses with strategic marketing. So, I’m so excited to introduce to you Frannie. Let’s get into our conversation. And please, as always, send me a DM with your takeaways on Instagram. I’m at Sam Vander Wielen, let me know what you thought about this episode and I’ll talk to you soon. See you on the other side.

Hey, Frannie, thank you so much for being on On Your Terms.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:04:51] Thanks for having me, Sam, so excited to nerd out about Facebook ads.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:04:55] You and me both. You know I love talking about this, and so I’m just so excited for you to be here and for you to share your expertise with everyone. I was sharing with Frannie before we got on today that this has been part of a larger little series that I’ve been doing about building evergreen content and creating like a true connected audience on social media or through evergreen content platforms. And so, I’m just really excited to chat with you today about like how ads fit into this big picture.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:05:24] Yeah, I love that a lot. And I think it speaks so much to what I try to teach my audience, too, is that like ads are a portion of your marketing, a portion of your business, but they can’t carry everything and they aren’t the answer.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:05:42] Yeah, exactly. That cannot fix all your problems. Yeah. So, before we get started, why don’t you tell everyone a little bit about what Elevate Her Marketing does, and how they work with business owners, because you have many different offers?

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:05:56] Yeah, for sure. So, Elevate Her Marketing, also known as EHM, you’ll probably hear me say that a few times, we help female-identifying online course creators grow their businesses. And really, like my main mission is I love helping women, in general, increase their income, improve their lives. And we’ve seen time and time again with our clients that the ability, the power that Facebook and Instagram ads can have on your business can totally and completely change things for you.

And we’ll talk about like all the little details that go into that in a bit, but yeah, it can really improve a business, but also, the individual lives of the business owners, which I think is what really excites me, too. It’s such like a trickle-down effect of you being able to hire a team and build a work environment for a team that is supportive, and help people feel really excited and great about their work, and then all the students that our clients help, right?

Because all of our clients are online course creators and there are so much benefit, it’s just like kind of so wide-reaching, and I feel really like excited and passionate about that. And then, when it comes to how we work with people or how we support people related to Facebook and Instagram ads, we can do individual strategy sessions with people, where they might be already running ads or they want to start running ads, and we really help them get their strategy on point, whether it’s building something that will be strategic from the get go or helping them make some adjustments if they’re not seeing the results that they want.

And we also do all the things for our clients, because I know a lot of people love the idea of using ads, but not so much the idea of actually getting in there and dealing with all of the fun that is Facebook Ads Manager, and campaign strategy, and changes, and a lot of our clients at that level are also doing so many other things in their business, but they just don’t have the time for it.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:08:31] Yeah, exactly. And I think I’m an example of one of your clients who has done the Goldilocks approach of working with you all. I started doing something that they have called the Strategy Party, which was like a deep dive, but then I was like, how do I get this stuff set up, because my business was getting busier? So then, I kind of did the middle package of getting support from you, but also being responsible for more stuff on the back end.

And now, for the last couple of years, I’ve been all in and been doing all the things with you guys, and you guys take very, very good care of me, and do everything with Facebook ads, because it’s just not possible at this point, so this is not going to happen. So, I just also wanted to share that, because sometimes, I think like Facebook ads only get talked about in—like there are a lot of myths around, oh, it’s really expensive, or you have to wait until you make a lot of money, or something like that, and there are other options available, and I think I’m somebody who’s taken these like baby steps and gotten through it.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:09:29] Yeah. And I love like letting people know that, because I do think a lot of people see who our clients are, people like you, and see that as like something they could do someday and it’s not accessible to them now. And I really think it’s so strategic to get started earlier on at a lower risk level, because you feel more comfortable. And then, as you grow your business and scale it, you have more knowledge around Facebook ads versus getting really big, and then diving in without having any kind of experience about the process or what to expect.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:10:06] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, I guess on that note then, like who is the kind of person who’s like a good candidate to start running Facebook ads or whose business, I suppose? Like what has to be going on in this person’s business or for them to dive into Facebook ads to start?

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:10:24] Yeah. So, I’m going to talk specifically about people that are in our niche, right? So, people that have digital products or even people who are running one-to-one services, if they want to grow their email list, that’s totally doable with Facebook ads, too. But I think the most important things to consider, if you’re going to go looking to get a return on your investment, you really want to have a proven product that people actually want, you want to have a proven offer, so you want to have your pricing on point, you want to have your messaging on point.

And it doesn’t have to be perfect, we can work on that together. Even in our partnership, I know you have made some changes along the way, some based on what you learned outside of the Facebook ads stuff, but also some of the things that we’ve talked about together, too. So, it can be an evolution, but you really need to be in a place where you know that your product and offer are working and converting.

You also really, really need to be willing to play the long game, because it’s not a quick win. It’s not something that you throw to somebody else and let go of, right? You know we do all the things for you guys, but there’s still a lot of stuff that has to happen on your end, because it really, truly is a partnership, where, yeah, we work on the Facebook ads side of things, but what has to happen after the click for all of that revenue to be coming in?

So, I think, yeah, the biggest things are having a converting product, a funnel that works, and just being realistic about what it takes. And that might have to involve a lot of conversations with friends who have run Facebook ads, talk to some people who are agencies or freelancers. You don’t have to be ready to buy or invest when you have those conversations, but learning more before you go into it, for sure.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:12:36] Yeah, and talking with somebody like EHM who can tell you like here’s why you might not be ready or here’s what you would get in place before you would come back to us, I think, can be really helpful to just get some guidance, because otherwise you might just be like floating around for a little while. But I also think like what Frannie is saying is so true and something I’ve gotten a lot of like panicked text messages from friends about in the past that I’m always like, I told you this was going to happen.

But my ads got rejected in the beginning, if you remember, Frannie, because like certain words triggered Facebook, and so certain things got shut down. I learned so much like the ads to have a learning period, so it takes time for them to get up and running. Some audiences didn’t work that we thought were sure things. Other ones that were like sleepers, we didn’t realize we’re going to be helpful.

So, it just takes time. And I’m just such a big fan of like patience in business, in general, and taking the long-haul approach, and I think in our ad relationship together, too, like we’ve seen such a successful turnaround, because I am not somebody who’s like, Frannie, if this like ad concept doesn’t make my sales this month, then like I’m out of here. And so, we take on a lot of people all the time, who, the truth is the majority of people don’t buy, right?

The majority of people get served an ad might sign up for the free workshop, and then only a small percentage of those people buy, but then they’re on my list, and then I’m nurturing them, and then I’m showing up on social media and I’m nurturing them, and then we’re running ads to them again later down the line. So, it’s just like I think you really, like Frannie said, have to go into it with this like this is not going to be your like overnight success, magic bullet/pill thing. Yeah.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:14:11] For sure. Yeah. And I love what you said, too, like some people will buy right away, but a lot of people won’t buy, and I call those like the Maybe Laters, I feel like I need to make like a little character of her and give her a name, because it’s so true. And that’s such a valuable part about Facebook ads, is that you’re constantly having new people come into your business, and yes, a lot of them will buy right away, but so many more won’t, and what are you doing to nurture them, to keep them engaged, and to keep them purchasing from you on a consistent basis? Right?

Like you’ll bring people in month one, and then maybe a lot of them won’t start converting until month three, but that’s like really beneficial for you in month three, even months six, right? Like the work you put in on day one is delivering you results consistently over time and it just snowballs, which is really, really exciting, but you’ve got to be able to, yeah, see that holistic picture.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:15:19] Yeah, exactly. We’ve been talking about this snowball approach a lot with this little series of interviews of like you can see whether it’s like you’re on YouTube, or Instagram, or creating a podcast, or running ads. It’s like all this stuff are these little deposits, and like stepping back, relearning, then stepping forward a little bit further than you did before. And so, it’s alive. I mean, with me and EHM, we have somebody dedicated to my account who’s constantly tinkering, and looking at the numbers, and we’re constantly adjusting, right?

So, it’s a very long game, that is for sure. But you mentioned something, Frannie, that I think would be helpful to go like a little deeper. And so, I can imagine that some of the people listening are like, I’m not in a place where I have a funnel, like maybe they have an offer, but they don’t have a funnel. And so, I thought you could maybe share a little bit about other reasons, other goals that you might run Facebook ads for other than running like a funnel-to-sale kind of thing.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:16:12] Yeah, for sure. And I mentioned this a little bit before, but I love when people want to get into ads before that point, too, because you can invest and play around. I don’t know if play around is the right word, but you can kind of tinker with things and test the waters with much lower stakes. So, I actually really love when people want to do that, because you get experience with Facebook ads and how things work in a way that can feel a lot more comfortable and less like, this has to work for me, or else, like I’m closing my business, or something like that.

So, one way is just awareness or visibility ads, and that could be something like running video ads, where you want to get more eyes on your Instagram account by running ads to Reel, or it could be a longer, more educational video where you want to get people actually watching for a couple of minutes. Maybe you’re just teaching like a short lesson on something or you’re sharing a really entertaining story that relates back to your product ultimately.

You could also do ads to a podcast or blog post so that you can get more listeners or you can get more traffic to your website. All of those things, while they’re not going to necessarily make you money today, they should ultimately, if you’re strategic about your business, bring people into your audience, and over time, they should be warming up or you should be warming them up, and hopefully, they’ll convert, too, eventually. And you can do that for five, $10 a day at a much more reasonable sort of investment in terms of risk level.

And you can see benefits from that. You can see what people are doing on your website. You can have a little opt-in box there if you have, say, it’s a blog post, and in the middle blog post, you’re kind of like, hey, you want to learn more about this topic or the next steps? People can actually provide their information, which also leads to the next type of ads, which is email growth ads, lead ads, which are so valuable, because as newer business owners or even people a few years in, like ultimately, the goal is to always get people on your email list, because we all know that social media can be gone tomorrow, it can shut us down for absolutely no reason, we are like under their control, unfortunately, and the one thing we do own is our email list.

So, a really, really great way to utilize ads if you’re not ready to go all in and sell your product yet is to get people on your email list and just start sending them emails, or driving them to your socials, or sending them offers via email, right? You can do that. I would say that’s a little bit of a bigger investment, I would say people on our niche who might be selling, or offering some kind of a freebie or a free training online, you might expect to pay 500 or $1,000 a month on ads for that. But ultimately, if your product is 500, $1000, and you get a couple of sales a month from those leads, it’s worth it, for sure.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:19:56] Yeah, for sure. And I imagine like for people who don’t have the like complex monster-looking funnel that I have now set up that took years and years to build on, it’s like Frankenstein’s monster at this point, but in the beginning, I had a much shorter of a funnel, which I imagined would like complement what you’re talking about. So, like for example, you could run ads to your podcast episodes, or your YouTube, or whatever, or to some pieces of content you’ve created, and then as long as you’re showing up on those channels, nurturing, and giving some sort of like opt in at the end of those—that’s what I spent years doing, right? I was creating this evergreen content, and at the end, being like, go watch my free webinar. So, I could see that being basically like a shortened funnel to your freebie at least. And ultimately, that would build your email list as well.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:20:44] For sure, yeah. I think the biggest thing I try and tell people is if you’re going to invest in ads at a 5-dollar-a-day level or a 5000-dollar-a-day level, like you need to have strategy behind it. And so, it’s never just—that’s why I get so, not annoyed, but I kind of want to like slap people on their wrist when they tell me they’re randomly boosting posts, because it like did good organically, and I’m like, okay, well, what’s your strategy?

What’s the point behind that, just to get me more people to view it, or if you have a call to action at the end of that post that did well, like, okay, fine, as that’s really smart and strategic? But yeah, just go into it with a goal and have a path from the Facebook ad to something that’s next, and next, and next. And that’s that holistic picture that we’re talking about, right? Like we’re always bringing people down this customer journey.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:21:43] Yeah, exactly, and nurturing them. Yeah. Okay. So, what are some of the things then that you do encourage people to have in place? Like when people come to you and they’re building the funnel, I know you said you need a proven offer and that we have to make sure that we’ve had sales. I think like social proof, I’ve talked to also about like social proof really helps for running ads. What are some other things that people have to have in place if they want to make sales from ads?

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:22:10] Yeah, great question. So, I have a whole list of this. Let’s see. So, definitely, you need to have a sales funnel. So, that is landing pages that bring people from the ad to an opt in, and then to a thank you page, and then ultimately, either delivering something free for that email exchange. And finally, a sales page, a cart, some kind of cart, a lot of services now offer that like all in one, which is really great.

So, yeah, a sales funnel. You also need to have follow-up, nurturing, whether that be, really, it should be both, email follow-up system, so you’re getting in touch with people not just on that same day that they come to you, but for a week or so after, for months after, but also showing up organically, because not everybody in your audience will be looking at their emails, they might be hanging out on Instagram.

And you can’t do everything at once, so you have to pick and choose a few of them to start with, and grow over time. I know you know that. You recently added a podcast, and you’re doing YouTube and stuff like that, but it wasn’t always that way, but it’s just a way to, yeah, take care of those Maybe Laters. You also want to have resources, and that means a lot of things, right? It means time to optimize those things that we just talked about, right?

Like nothing works perfectly all the time, you might find you’re getting people to that big magnet page or that landing page, and they’re not converting that well. So, maybe there’s some optimization there. You also need time to create ads, right? Like we’ll build ads for you, or if you’re doing it yourself, you can build them in Canva, but you also need to maybe do some video recording. You need assets in terms of images, like photos.

They can be images that your friend took of you on your iPhone or you can have a photo shoot with somebody, right? So, you want to have those assets in place, that time. You also need resources in terms of people from time to time, right? When you’re just getting started out, it’s usually you, but if you’re going to be investing in ads, you’re probably at a level where you have one or two team members, at least, maybe a VA or a tech person who can help out. That’s super helpful, because it really allows you to move quickly.

I find that, sometimes, in the past, we’ve worked with people who didn’t have team members, and when we needed some funnel changes, they were so focused on their social media content that they didn’t make the funnel changes a priority. So, that’s really important. Whether it’s your own time or the time of people on your team, that’s like a big thing, because I think people see Facebook ads as, right away, giving them way more time, and it does do that for you eventually, but it also takes those resources, too.

And ultimately, budget, right? You don’t want to go into Facebook ads with the idea that I’m going to invest $500 and I need to make that $500 back now. You really need to consider that. And if you are working with someone who has proven success with ads and you’re trying to sell, say, like an online course with ads, you could consider the first month, you won’t make any money, and then the second month, you might break even, and the third month is where you might start to profit, if it happened on day one, but you really want to go into it thinking that there’s going to be a lot of learning involved, and if you have the budget to kind of wait that out, then you’re in the right place to do some investing with ads, but you have to be patient and be willing to tweak what’s not working to get to the successful point.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:26:42] Yeah, I’m so glad you talked about that aspect, like the budget aspect is so helpful to people. And I always like compare it to like buying a house or renting an apartment of like you don’t want to be housed poorly, right? So, you don’t want to get a place that it’s like if something goes wrong, I’m going to be so stressed that this is terrible, right? And I felt the same way when I invested in ad.

And I think I probably waited too long in the sense that like I was just afraid to do it, and I could have afforded it at that point, but I was afraid. But once I did, I was very much like in a mental place, where I was just like, if this doesn’t work out, it’s okay, it was an experiment, and I’m very pro-experiment in business, and it wouldn’t have destroyed the business, it wouldn’t have disrupted it, really.

But it’s an investment, just like any other investment, it doesn’t always work out the way that you want to or in the time period that you want to. But I always think, too, like Facebook ads, I’ve talked about this a lot in the podcast, like for some reason, you see a lot in marketing, people pride themselves on like, “I do all this without Facebook ads”, and for some reason, they like vilify this, and I’m like, I don’t understand why this gets so vilified, it’s just advertisement.

Like it’s our businesses’ form of advertisement. It doesn’t make sense for me to have a billboard on the highway, because like none of my ideal clients are going to see it, and this is my highway billboard. Like this is my highway, my highway is Instagram and Facebook. So, like I don’t know, I was hoping you would talk a little bit about just this like vilification that people have or it’s like pride, and maybe where you see that coming from or why you think that’s like a popular topic.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:28:15] Yeah, it’s so funny, like I talked about this, for sure, on social media. I think that just the idea of sort of people do one strategy in business and they hang on to it. Not always, but they hang on to it, and think, that is the way to go. And I also think a part of it is just like their marketing strategy, too, right? Maybe they’re selling how to sell on Instagram without ads or something like that, but yeah, I don’t know why it gets vilified.

I think people also have bad experience with ads, so they sort of put it in that category as well, which it can sometimes be the ads, but more likely than not, it’s either they have an issue on their back end, or they worked with somebody who wasn’t right for them, or who was scammy, or whatever. But I think it’s so funny, because when I look at people with that kind of success, I mean, it’s possible, I think much more common back in the day, a few years back, but if you really want to grow in scale, like it’s great that you have all that success without ads, like why wouldn’t you just add ads to the equation so that you could focus on other things and like feel 10 times more?

I have a client who, we first started working with her, she had her last launch, she made 50K in revenue, which is amazing. And then, the first launch we did together, she made 150K, and it was like we had just started working with her, so there wasn’t a ton of optimization in place, it was really just adding fuel to her fire. And so, when people kind of have that message or that mindset, that’s sort of where I drive them, is, yes, you can do a lot without ads, for sure, but why wouldn’t you add them so that you can create more profit, grow your team, serve more people? Yeah, I think it’s really funny, and it doesn’t bother me, because they’re probably like not the right people for ads anyways, but yeah, I do think it’s funny, because it’s almost like I’d love to work with somebody like that, and then show them, and be like, oh, look what happens when you do get ads.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:31:02] Yeah, I’m glad you said that, but I think it’s helpful for people to hear, because they’re consuming a lot of content that’s throwing those messages at them, too, they almost make like ads seem dirty or something. And also, like I’ve talked about when I did the episode on the podcast about Facebook ads, I said like it’s not for everyone and it’s not like a requirement, like you don’t have to, but like Frannie is saying, it also can be helpful and I don’t understand why it gets like, yeah, vilified in that way.

But I would also encourage anyone listening, like when you hear people talking about that, I personally always take a moment to look at how much content they produce. That’s what I call toilet content, meaning it goes down the toilet very quickly. So, these people tend to be, they’re on TikTok, they’re creating a Reel a day, they’re on Stories a ton. The energy I’m getting from them is that they’re like really attached to creating content that’s all going down the toilet.

And so, the thing I really enjoyed about ads was that it allowed me to slow down a bit, and go back to my roots of creating content like this, and YouTube videos, and that kind of stuff, and then like the toilet content is more the supplementary. Like I can go there, and just be myself, and show little snippets of my day, but it doesn’t have to dominate my life, because if you make a post on Instagram, after you listen to this episode, go into any of your posts, look at the reach of that post, look at how many people have seen that.

And then, DM me, and I’ll send you a screenshot of how many people have seen my ads and like how many people have seen my video. Somebody commented on one of my ads yesterday, and I just happened to click on it, and I saw that that like ad video had like hundreds of thousands of views. I could never create a post on Instagram that would get that many views, like the algorithm will just not allow that to happen, in my opinion, unless I do something terribly viral.

So, I just like think about that, too, the kind of like the why not is like I feel like I’m paying to allow them to do the work for me and to show me to more people than I could ever reach. So, I’d be standing there every day, screaming into a microphone, reaching this many people when I can produce less content and have you guys put out these ads that get to so many more than I ever could.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:33:11] Yeah, for sure. And actually, I love that you said that, too, because I think two things. One, like some people just love to be showing up all the time and creating new content all the time. And there’s nothing wrong with that. You can see success from that and some people are super happy doing that. Maybe they feel more in control of their results or they just love getting on social. For people who don’t want to do it as much, or like you or I who prefer to create content that lasts a lot longer, then ads are better for us. But like you said, yeah, ads are not for everyone.

Also, some people just don’t want to get that big. You know, for sure, like as you grow ads, as you scale your business, there is more to manage. You’ve managed things in a different way. It can be really fun and exciting. It can be hard. It can be challenging. And it can be good and bad. But some people also just don’t want to get bigger, and that’s okay, too. But yeah, I do think that’s a good point to bring up and talk about, is considering what you want from your business and what it might look like to grow bigger in one way or the other. It’s not really right or wrong, it’s just two different strategies.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:34:36] Yeah. Have you ever felt lost about where to begin with the legal side of protecting your online business? Some people say you can just wing it at the beginning and get officially set up later. Not a good idea, by the way. Whether you’re afraid to even start working with clients, because you don’t want to do something wrong legally, and then get in trouble, or your business is growing and you sort of forgot to take care of the legal pieces, I’ve got you.

I don’t want you to live in fear of the internet police coming after you and your business, but you do have to do certain things and get certain things in place in order to legally and safely run your business online. As much as it just feels like an unregulated, Wild, Wild West online, that is very much not the case. As an attorney turned entrepreneur and former corporate litigator, I can assure you that there are rules, there are real steps that everybody who runs or starts an online business needs to take.

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Ads have been so helpful to me in stabilizing like difficult life situations over the last couple of years. I’ve been with EHM while my dad was really sick and like all these things were going on. And so, I always say to my friends, it feels like you have like a little secret like marketer in your business, like a worker who’s out there like telling people about your business even when you’re not doing anything.

So, in a couple of weeks when I’m on vacation, like you guys will be serving up my ads all the time and people are still coming into my business without me having to go onto Instagram, on Stories, and whatever. So, still, like it has worked for me very well, and in times, when I have just really wanted to be more inward because of stuff going on with my dad, that the numbers are all still very stable. I don’t really see a big difference and we don’t see everything like slow down.

So, if maybe somebody has another job, or childcare, or all these other things going on in life, I feel like you can also approach ad from like a stabilization standpoint as well. Yeah, I could see that be helpful. So, what are some of the most common mistakes that you see, Frannie, when somebody tries to start ads themselves, yeah, like maybe on their own or maybe with just working individually with like somebody to implement their ads, but not necessarily an agency like yours that has so much expertise?

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:37:39] Yeah, that’s a great question. These are all great questions and stuff I love to like talk about. I think there are a few things. I would say, and obviously, I’m going to say this because I am an ads agency, but I think Facebook and Instagram ads, unless you’re somebody who really enjoys tinkering around with new platforms and really diving in to make things work, a lot of what I find is that the people that we work with are really smart and great at what they do, and don’t love what we do, which is Facebook and Instagram ads.

And so, very few people really get a lot of enjoyment and want to focus on that side of things, so they should be investing in coaching, or a course, or all on somebody doing it for them, but they’re afraid, so they end up trying to do it themselves on their own, or going for the cheaper course, or a freelancer, or whatever, and that’s totally fine, I totally understand it, but what I find is that a lot of people eventually come back to us, and are like, “Actually, this really didn’t work out at all. I had a terrible experience, and now, I’m ready to work with you.”

And I guess I would say, really look at the level of support you’re going to get and do your research about whoever you’re going to work with. I recently had someone who bought my course a few years back, and we’ve chitchatted, and she was like, “I’m just not ready for your level yet, but I’m considering working with somebody else, I have this question, can I ask you?” And I’m like, “Yes, no problem. Like I want you to be at a place where you can work with us, I know you’ll get there someday, but like here’s what you should think about in this situation.”

So, I guess if you are going to take the leap and you really want to go the Facebook ad path, do a lot of research into what you’re going to invest in and make sure that you’re making not just the cheapest investment, but the right investment or waiting a little bit until you have the resources to invest in something that will really get you to where you want to go.

I know, myself included, I’ve invested in things before, where I went the cheaper route, and then I picked myself, because I know that, actually, I needed to invest at a higher level, I was just afraid. And that’s fine, we all do it, but I would say that’s like a big mistake a lot of people make. Another mistake is having unrealistic expectations. A lot of people have one expectation. Every single person I talk to on like a discovery call says, “I know you can’t give me an exact answer, but like what results am I going to get?”

“I’m not going to give you an answer at all, because I can’t tell you. I can give you all these numbers of what might happen, but it’s still not going to be the answer you’re looking for. Here’s a rough idea of what you might be able to expect, but there’s no guarantee. What I can guarantee you is that we’re going to work together as your partner and work really hard with you to get you to success.” So, just kind of keeping that in mind and being willing to put in the time and effort to make it work and not give up, especially if you have a product that you know people want and you have an offer that is good. It’s really about that optimization, about tracking, looking at where the problem might be, and how we could solve it together.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:41:45] Yeah, it’s so true. There are so many elements, I think, that I never—and so I’m not saying this in any like bad way, but I just think that people would not realize, because I did not realize before I started running ads that it’s kind of like a Rubik’s Cube of all these things of like, you have the tracking specialist, but also like the creative. Like I remember not knowing how important—like I thought it was all about just like serving up to the right audiences, right?

So, as long as we get this ad from the audience, it’s like, duh, they’re just going to convert, right? But then, it was like, what about this creative? And then, we got even more creative with the creative, and now, we’re then talking about the copy, the headlines, the link, the page, the landing page that we send them to. It’s like a seesaw, it’s like constantly flowing of like all these things we have to adjust, which is so helpful in working with somebody.

Like it’s not just about setting up these ads and just making sure they’re like getting clicks, because that’s not going to—it’s kind of like the equivalent of like having a lot of Instagram follow, that doesn’t do anything for you. It’s like just having a lot of clicks in your ads that then go nowhere isn’t going to help you. So, I think it’s like it’s good to ask all of these questions if you’re talking to anyone, if you end up talking to Frannie’s team, like just making sure you’re asking about all these different areas, because it’s very, very nuanced.

And so, I just want people to ask about that kind of stuff. The other thing that I was thinking about was that with ads, I think, sometimes, people think that they’re a little bit of like a hand-off, like that you just hand them off to an ads team, and then you’re kind of out of it, right? And the way that I always think about our partnership and one of the things that I think makes it work really well is that you guys are the ads experts, right? You’re the ads experts, you’re a messaging, creative, delivery expert, all of that kind of stuff, like on the execution side and the management side, but I have to be the expert in my business, and of my client, and like of who our ideal client is, what messaging is working for them.

I mean, you obviously have a lot of expertise from the copy side, but then I’ll say anecdotally, this is what I’m hearing or people are asking me a lot about this. And they don’t like this language. They don’t like when you use this phrase or they love it when you use that phrase. And we also have to pay attention on my side to like what content’s working well, what’s performing, right?

And I feel like in our meetings, I’m often chiming in and like being very involved, to be like, but this is what I’m seeing or I want to try this, because this is what I’m feeling with the clients. And so, I think like I just wanted to have you speak on that for a second of like how this is really a collaborative thing, and this is not something you just like hand off, and someone’s like making money for you while you’re like on the beach drinking a mojito, even though that sounds nice.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:44:17] Yeah. I hope someday, you are on the beach, drinking some mojitos.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:44:21] Well, you can do that, too, right?

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:44:23] Yeah, for sure. But I love that topic, because it’s so important. Our most successful clients are our best partners. I think a lot of people, not so much that we come across any more, but I’ve definitely worked with some people before and there are lots of people in the corporate world, for sure, no offense, that are like, “I’m paying you to do this for me”, versus like I really feel when we work with our clients, they become our partners, because it really is a group effort. Like we have to do our stuff, but you also have to do your stuff.

And what makes a successful client for us is somebody who wants to work together, who wants to tell us, “Hey, I’m hearing a lot of people talking about this lately that they weren’t talking about before, maybe we can incorporate this in the ad”. We recently had a client who had seen like lower results for a little bit and we had like a strategy session where we really were talking about like all of the numbers in her funnel, we were talking about, okay, what are the ideas that we have? Where do we see this leak and how can we work together? What can they do on their side to make changes, and what can we do on the ad side to make changes and improve those results?

And it’s like, honestly, like I think it’s funny to say this, but it’s like such a beautiful thing when that works out so well, because it really is like a puzzle that we’re figuring out together, and it’s so strategic and definitely nerdy, but I’m like a nerd about this stuff, but it’s really cool when you get smart people working together, and using all of that like brainpower and expertise from each side or from multiple people to improve things or take it to the next level.

That’s so fun, and it makes the partnership feel more like a friendship than anything, and I think it’s what gets people the best results. Our absolutely most successful clients are the ones who come at the relationship in that way and who give us—of course, we want to be doing as much as we can for you and taking as much as we can off your plate, but also, who gives us a lot, too, in terms of just information or even ideas, yeah, like you said, you know your audience and your business best, so you have to share those things with us so that we can also represent that in your ads.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:47:04] Yeah, totally. Yeah. Sometimes, it’s like even just you guys know like what trends are going on or like what trends are—I mean, since I’ve been running Facebook ads, things have changed so much from like static images to then videos, to like Reel-style videos, to this, that. It’s like it shifts all the time, so sometimes, you guys will bring the best concept, and then I’ll be like, but here’s the content that’s working the best, and we just like apply that to the concept that’s working and something like that.

So, I think it’s so helpful. I also thought it would be kind of fun to go through a couple of—well, actually, before that, I just wanted to make a note that I was just realizing that everyone in this little series who I’ve interviewed so far has called themselves a nerd at some point in the interview, and I just wanted to note, first of all, that all my friends are nerds and I’m a nerd, too, but also, that isn’t it funny how like people who are really good at what they do feel so passionately about it? And I just don’t think that’s like a mistake that like all of you guys have felt so—like you love what you do and you love like digging deep into the details, and it’s just funny that all three of you have shared that. So, I just want everyone to note, nerd out on your business.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:48:09] A bunch of nerds.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:48:09] Yeah, nerd out on your business, it plays well in the long run. So, I thought that there are a lot of like common ad myths or thoughts people have that we can go through. So, the first one that I wanted you to respond to is that ads are super expensive, like you don’t do this until you make a lot of money.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:48:28] Yeah, great one. I think that ads can be expensive if you aren’t strategic about how you go about it, like you’re just throwing spaghetti at the wall. Ads are an investment, for sure, but they also are a huge, huge revenue driver. And if you’re willing to strategically invest in the process, I think everything we’ve said before this has kind of talked about how to do that.

If you strategically invest in the process, and yet take a little bit of risk on, you can see benefits and results like you honestly never could have maybe even dreamed of. And I always worry about like telling people they can expect X, Y, Z, but like I know you know, for sure, like you’ve had some moments where you’re like, I cannot believe like ads have helped my business do this and that. Like we said before, it’s not only the ads, the ads aren’t the thing that did it, but it is that fuel that helps amplify everything that you’ve done really well.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:49:53] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And investing in ads initially at like the baby stages, at like the lower offer that you have was what enabled me. Like I remember when I started working with Frannie, I remember telling Frannie specifically, it is my dream to work with you in like the full package, but at that moment, I couldn’t imagine like investing that much, right? And it was like really, quickly that the ads themselves took off that then it allowed me to invest in that bigger package, which allowed the ads to get even better.

So, it can be something you like build upon, but it was not that long ago that I was telling Frannie on Zoom like, I can’t wait to work with you one day and like be able to do this. So, it happens. Another one that I thought was really good, and I feel like, well, we all get this no matter what industry we’re in, but I hear this about ads a lot, is like ads will only work if you sell courses, or like ads don’t work for people who do like one-to-one coaching, or like ads only work if you’re in the business like marketing space, what do you say to those questions or challenges?

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:50:54] I think ads can work for anyone. If you solve a real problem, if you have a product that people want, it doesn’t matter what type of business you are, I truly believe that you need to just get it out in front of the right people, use the right messaging, and have a system like we’ve talked about that actually brings them from a visitor to your digital space or physical space to somebody who actually buys from you.

I know people that have local businesses that get great results from ads, I know people that don’t have courses that get great results from ads, they do one-to-one coaching, they sell, we actually work with some clients who are old school bloggers, right? Their revenue comes from affiliates, or ads on their blog, or et cetera, et cetera. They know that getting someone on their email list will ultimately return them money in one way or another, so they just deliver, they just run ads to grow their email list, their goal isn’t even to sell a course or anything.

So, yeah, ads can work for all types of businesses. I don’t know, I guess I’m a broken record, but you just have to be strategic about how you do it. One thing I will say is that it’s really smart to invest, or work with, or learn from somebody who has experience, not only has experience, but has proven results from people that have a business like you.

So, I get requests all the time from somebody who runs like a physical product business, or I’ve gotten requests from people who have like a local business, and it’s really not what I can help them with, because it’s a different way of marketing, for sure, on the Facebook ad sense, and so I would just make sure that you’re looking for somebody who’s worked with a business like yours.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:53:00] Yeah, that’s a really good tip. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I’m sure that there are probably ads teams that focus more just on physical products and couldn’t help people like us. Yeah, so that makes sense.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:53:10] Yeah.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:53:11] What would you also say to the myth that people unfortunately see this, and I know a couple of people who have done this, that the ads will solve all of my sales problems, so like if this thing isn’t selling enough, all I’m going to do is throw some ads behind it, and finally, this course will take off.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:53:29] Yeah. I would say that that is the exact point when you should not invest in that. Yeah. Ads are amplification, and if you have something that’s broken, it’s maybe going to make that worse and you’re just going to be throwing money into a pit. And I think that’s why the ads get that bad rap is because a lot of people go into ads like, “If I can just get more people in front of it, this will work”, versus like really looking at what’s broken on their own end.

I think that it’s hard as a creator, as somebody who’s put a lot of like time, and effort, and love into building something, to accept that what you’ve done isn’t working, or maybe people just don’t want it, or maybe it’s just not packaged right. And I think that kind of when people invest in ad, and hoping for like a Hail Mary, and it doesn’t give it to them, and they’re still kind of maybe blaming it on the ad when it’s not necessarily the case.

I think another thing is like a lot of creative people aren’t super analytical, don’t want to really look at the numbers. I know like it’s not so easy or fun, but it’s actually like, in some cases, you don’t want to necessarily like focus on numbers, like number of followers or things like that, but you do need to look at like what the numbers are telling you and what it means. And when you take the time to do that, or you have someone help you do it if you’re not good at it or you don’t truly understand it is okay, but that can really tell you maybe where your problem is instead of throwing money at ads sort of as a last ditch effort.

Sam Vander Wielen: [00:55:29] Yeah, for sure. All of the scenarios that I know of like firsthand were all like no strategy. They weren’t working with somebody who told them, “Hey, you should have this stuff set up first”. Like it’s stuff that I know, having worked with you for so long, that you never would have taken. And I think that’s another thing, is like finding that person who you’ll feel—like one of the reasons why I trusted Frannie so much when I first spoke with her is because I remember having this conversation asking the question about like, so what can I expect from my results?

And Frannie being honest and just being like, “We can’t make promises”, which, by the way, legally speaking, is what all of you should be doing, like period, with whatever you’re doing, right? You shouldn’t be making promises. But also, you sharing with me like the fact that my stuff was already working, that this would be basically amplification. We really saw it as like pouring fuel on an already burning fire, right? I wasn’t trying to start a fire with the fuel, it was already going and we were just like making a bonfire, and that is what happened, right?

And it doesn’t mean it was without hiccups or anything like this, but like that is how it was. So, anyway, the last like little myth I wanted to go over, too, is that I feel like I get questions from people a lot of like, wait, didn’t iOS like messed everything up? Like didn’t all of these Apple changes, and now, like email changes, and all these kinds of things, didn’t that mess anything up? Are ads still successful? I get questions about that.

Frannie Coggeshall: [00:56:53] Yeah. I love that. I’d love to talk about that now, because this time last year, I didn’t have the same view on it. But I think what it goes back to is like, foundationally, marketing is the same as it always has been and always will be, and it’s really important to understand the foundations of marketing. And when you do, yes, it can rock you and change things a lot when there are things like the iOS update, big Facebook ad algorithm changes, but ultimately, like if you have a successful business, if you understand the foundations of marketing, you can adapt, right?

Like it’s taken a while, but now, I feel like we are in a place where, yes, the iOS update was a big change, and there are probably more big changes coming, we’re just in this industry where things are constantly changing. And even before iOS happened, like Facebook would change its algorithm, make big algorithm changes every year or so, and you kind of have to relearn how to run your campaigns, in a sense.

And I know that people who don’t run ads themselves, are not actually in there doing it will never understand, but there’s so much that goes into that process. So, it is a lot of work, but yes, I guess the answer, long story short, yes, Facebook ads still work. I would say that the thing that has changed is that we’re sort of actually a little bit closer to that billboard style of advertising than we used to be, right?

Facebook revolutionized advertising, in that we could so specifically target somebody in a way that you never, ever could before, and it still is like unmatched, I would say, in terms of paid advertising, how well you can not only target people, but see the direct result of their actions from a targeting option to an ad itself, it’s crazy, but you just don’t have as detailed of targeting.

You just don’t have as deep of a picture on all the results that your ads are getting you unless maybe you’re using [indiscernible] the third-party tracking system like we use, which has been a life saver, but yeah, you’re targeting a broader audience. If your messaging is on point, if your everything else that we’ve already talked about is on point, it’s just a matter of being able to navigate that bumpy part, and then getting to a place, and working with somebody or being willing to do the work on your end to get to a place where, okay, we’re back in the game, and things are going well.

And we’re seeing really great results for our clients. I think something that’s important to mention is like when, and I’m like actually creating some content on this now to put out, is when we say like consistent sales from Facebook and Instagram ads, I think I haven’t done the best job and I think a lot of people don’t do a great job of this, of being really clear about what that means.

Because when we started working together, I don’t know if it was you or whoever, but I think it was you, you want to have like 10K months, consistent 10K months from your Facebook ads, and that was so exciting, and definitely, like you started there, and then you went to 10 or 20K months, and then it went down for a month or two, and it was kind of like, alright, let’s work together as partners. and then we got it back up, and it went up and up.

And so, there are going to be dips regardless of iOS updates, Facebook algorithm, but sometimes, the holidays come around, there’s so much competition that people aren’t buying courses. They’re like, “I got to get my grandma, and my niece, and my parents a Christmas present”. So, you have to be willing to weather those times, working with somebody you really trust, willing to partner with them to navigate those times, but ultimately, like things are going to—you’ll figure it out if you are willing to kind of be in it for the long haul.

I know someone asked me like, “Are you going to start doing Google ads or TikTok ads?” And we’re like, “Yeah”, and last year, I was like really considering that a lot more, and I think we will eventually get into another platform, which is like really fun and exciting, but we’re going to do it from a place of like things are going really well for us and our clients, like let’s do that, versus like, oh, my gosh, I’m scared about iOS, we have to try something else.

We know the foundations of marketing, and so we could get to TikTok, and learn it, and figure out how to make it work for our clients. We could do the same thing on Pinterest, we could do the same thing on Google ads, or whatever it is, right? So, it just really goes back to the foundation and also being willing to weather those storms when they come up.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:02:28] Yeah, because those platforms are so—well, particularly with like TikTok, like that’s still so in development that like God only knows what would be going on over there by the time we’d all get ready. Can we all just, for the record, say that it is so nice on TikTok, though, that you don’t have to really write a caption? That is like huge. But at the same time, people don’t really get value other than the video, and then I’m like, are these just leading to vanity metrics and not sales?

But that’s like a whole different rant for a different day, but these are the things that keep me up at night that I think about all the time. I love that answer, though, Frannie, because I think you like basically hit on all of the things we’ve been talking about today, of like just even iOS was just another experiment, right? It’s just another thing of like, just, well, this is just part of it, right?

It’s like that’s just another part that we have, too. But I also like what you was sharing about how it doesn’t have to be a major iOS change, it can also be like just the holidays or these other things coming up in your business that things might change, right? So, I think that’s so helpful for everyone to think about. And also just thinking about this like, sometimes, I just try to remind myself with the mindset about Facebook ads of like I’m not like entitled to these results, or like I’m not entitled to these results lasting forever, or even if it’s working for me, or I don’t know, like all of these things, it’s just like I feel the same way about Instagram.

Like people get like angry about stuff, and it’s just like it’s a free platform that you choose to show up on, and like you choose to participate in Facebook ads, and part of what I hope Frannie is telling you today, too, is like, if you choose to participate in that, you’re choosing to participate in that system, and that system is not a constant, it’s not a guarantee, and it’s part of a larger ecosystem of like consistency and nurturing, and like, yeah, a proven sales system that have to make sense.

It’s not a guarantee, so we can’t like get mad at the system. That’s how I think about it. I’m just like, I’m here for the ride, if they pull out tomorrow, like they didn’t owe it to me. Like if they said tomorrow, like no more Facebook ads, we’re not doing it anymore, which they never would, because they make so much money, but I’m just saying, like you have to imagine that in your business, right? Like I have to imagine like, what would I do if Facebook ads stop tomorrow? How would we respond?

I also don’t want my business to be in a position where that would tank my business and it very much would not, right? We just ran a huge promo where we spent a lot of money on Facebook ads and it was very successful from a Facebook ad standpoint, it still only accounted for like 30% of our total sales. And so, like it’s very interesting. So, that’s, again, another example where like this just fits into my business, it’s not my business. It’s not making it, because I also don’t want it to sink it, right? Yeah. Feels like having all your money tied up in the stock market or something, yeah.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:05:13] Yeah. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket, which is like that holistic picture, right? And it doesn’t happen overnight, you grow those systems over time, for sure. But yeah, it’s a ride, and it’s just like life, though, right? Like things change, and it’s easy and comfortable when things stay the same, but it’s also like exciting and challenging when they change, and you can tackle new things.

I mean, if I look back a year ago, it was a lot to take on as a business owner, like this thing that you focus your whole business on is just going to change and you have no idea what’s going to happen. It was stressful. But I looked back and it taught me so much. I learned so much. Like we really got stronger as a business, as a team. And I think it even helped our clients like realize different things about their business, too. So, it’s also your mindset and how you choose to look at it.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:06:16] Yeah. And I really want to look at this as just like it’s fun and just an experiment, it’s part of the larger picture, and it works really well if you work with really good people like EHM, so I highly recommend. Before we tell everybody where to find you, if you have a minute, I just wanted to ask you a couple of fun questions, some would you rathers. So, I think I know the answer to most of these for you. Would you rather read fiction or non-fiction?

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:06:47] Fiction, for sure.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:06:48] Yeah, you and me both. Would you rather live at the beach, near the mountains, or the desert?

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:06:54] Oh, gosh. This one is so difficult. I feel like I have a dream of living in the mountains, I love hiking, I love the mountains, but I grew up on the beach and I just don’t know, since I haven’t lived in the mountains yet, I can’t really guarantee that it would be everything I want it to be. Like I have to choose the beach, because it’s my home, but yeah, that’s a tough one. I mean, the desert is super cool, but for me, it’s not up there with those other two.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:07:30] Yeah, same with me. I feel like for people who grow up near the water, it’s just like you don’t realize what it would be like until you don’t live near the water, and then you’re like, oh, no. Yeah. I always joke with Ryan that I need a house that’s on the beach that like backs up to the mountains within 5 minutes of a city, and I’m just like, if I could just like find all of that, that would work great for me.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:07:48] Yeah. I’ll be your neighbor.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:07:49] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think that’s maybe South Africa. I don’t know. We’ll look into it. So, would you rather order coffee or tea? And if so, you have to tell me what your order would be.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:08:03] Okay, definitely coffee. I used to be a tea person, but since moving to Europe, I am, for sure, a coffee person. And it’s really tough, because I love like a European espresso. I was never somebody who really saw the like—I don’t know. Like I wasn’t like a coffee person. I like coffee, but after moving here, I really appreciate like a good coffee, but something I missed so much from home is like an iced coffee. They don’t have that here. In the summer, like going to get an iced coffee, like have the windows down and music up like in your car on the way to the beach. I feel like that’s like such a vibe that I love. So, yeah, it kind of depends. But yeah, I love an espresso or a cappuccino, too.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:08:55] Oh, yeah, cappuccinos. Sounds good. I’m going to go have one soon.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:08:58] I know you’re coffee, right? Because I know you love coffee.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:09:01] I also love tea, but like—so my deal with myself is I can only drink coffee up to like noon, because I don’t handle it super well later. And so then, I switch to tea. I like to have tea usually when I do my afternoon work. Especially if I’m writing, I like to have tea. And sometimes, like tea before bed. But you know me, I would be like buzzing around coffee all day long. Lately, my go-to coffee order has been-

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:09:24] Yeah, I was going to say, what’s your order?

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:09:26] My new thing I’m getting at this coffee shop I love here in New York is a latte with a little bit of hazelnut syrup and macadamia milk, and it is really good. It’s really good.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:09:36] I feel like I’ve never heard of that. I love it.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:09:38] Macadamia milk was not on my radar. I have almond milk all the time, and I have oat milk at the house, and stuff, but then I just tried it on a whim, and now, I’m really into it. I highly recommend.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:09:48] I’ll have to try it next time I’m in the US.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:09:49] Let me know if you can find it in Portugal. Yeah.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:09:51] Yeah, no. It’s definitely not here.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:09:53] Yeah, I figured. I’ll ship you some, but it might take forever to get to you. This one’s my favorite one, because this is a very controversial question. When you cook, would you rather, maybe America has to chime in on this, clean up as you go or clean up at the end?

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:10:10] Absolutely, clean up as I go.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:10:11] Me, too. That’s a very controversial question. People feel very strongly about this.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:10:16] I feel very strongly about cleaning up as I go, and I think maybe I judge people who do not. I don’t know. What do you do?

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:10:28] I clean up as I go, and it’s funny because I take a cooking class every Sunday like on Zoom, and I’m always like cooking like while she’s still talking, and I’m always like looking at all the other people on the screen, like no one else is doing this, I’m like, doesn’t it drive you guys crazy to get to the end, like your kitchen’s like piled up? So, yeah, I like clean as much as I can. I mean, it’s not perfect, but I think it’s helpful.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:10:49] Yeah, same.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:10:50] Yeah. Alright. Last one. Would you rather hit up a fancy restaurant or hit up the best food truck?

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:10:57] The best food truck.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:10:58] Yeah, it’s probably better food, honestly.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:11:01] I mean, I love a fancy restaurant like with really great food and stuff, but there’s nothing like finding like this little local gem that just like really has the best stuff.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:11:15] Yeah. Do they have foods trucks in Portugal?

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:11:20] Yeah, they do have some food trucks. Not so many, but yeah, they do. I would say more like wandering around, finding like these little tiny local places where you can get really great stuff. I feel like that one’s so hard, though, because it’s like asking like, what’s your favorite place you’ve ever visited? And it’s like you can’t really compare, because it’s two totally different experiences.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:11:44] Yeah, I know. And like in a post-COVID world, I’m like, I guess I’ve come to appreciate the experience of going to a restaurant and like having someone else cleaning the—speaking of cleaning dishes, I’m like a professional dishwasher, and two years in, I’m like, oh, my goodness. So, I feel like that part, and just like feeling very taken care of, like that’s fun, but then I also-

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:12:07] Yeah, the server.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:12:07] Yeah, but then I feel like you get this like more soulful food from the food truck that just has more like history and roots to it. I appreciate that, too. So, it’s, yeah, both. I’ll take both. Well, this was so fun, Frannie. I had so much fun chatting with you. Will you just share with everyone where they can find you and like what best next steps would be for them?

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:12:30] Yeah, for sure. The best place to find us is on Instagram, Elevate Her Marketing is our handle, and I’m there most of the time. You can DM us. You can follow us. We share all kinds of Facebook tips. I talk a lot about what to—a lot of reminders about the things we talked about today, like what you can really expect from Facebook ads, how to go into it with a right mindset, things like that, and lots of tactical things like which ad to create, or how to create this type of ad, or try testing this type of targeting, things like that. So, yeah, you can find us there. And then, there are tons of resources on our website, free resources that you can find through the link in my bio on Instagram.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:13:15] Yeah, that’s perfect. And if you go over and follow them at Elevate Her Marketing on Instagram, they are my favorite kind of like content to follow, which is very like tip-heavy, resource-heavy, so I would definitely make sure you give it a follow, and I’ll make sure I link to everything in this episode and give everybody a way to find you. But thank you so much, Frannie, for doing this. This is so fun.

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:13:35] Yeah, thanks for having me. You know I’m always down for a super nerdy conversation.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:13:40] Yeah, anytime. And you guys send us a DM if you have any questions, because if you have enough questions, too, maybe you want like another episode with Frannie in the future, if I can convince her to come back, I will, and we’ll talk any other Facebook ads questions, we could do like a Q&A or something. So, hit us at-

Frannie Coggeshall: [01:13:57] Yeah, I’d love that.

Sam Vander Wielen: [01:13:58] Yeah. Thanks, everybody. We’ll talk to you later.

Thanks so much for listening to the On Your Terms podcast. Make sure to follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. You can also check out all of our podcast episodes, show notes, links, and more at samvanderwielen.com/podcast. You can learn more about legally protecting your business and take my free legal workshop, Five Steps to Legally Protect and Grow Your Online Business, at samvanderwielen.com. And to stay connected and follow along, follow me on Instagram at Sam Vander Wielen, and send me a DM to say hi.