87. The Ultimate Bundle™ IRL: How Real Customers Use it to Legally Protect Themselves

Sam Vander Wielen: Hey there, and welcome back to On Your Terms. I’m your host, Sam Vander Wielen, an attorney turned entrepreneur who helps you legally protect your online business using my DIY legal templates and my Ultimate Bundle program.

Speaking of my signature program, The Ultimate Bundle, I am so excited to share today’s episode with you because today was just such a treat for me. I sat down with four of my Ultimate Bundle members, some of whom have been in for years, some are newer, but it was so fun. And I wanted to give you a little bit of a variety of seeing people with different businesses at different points in their businesses, doing different things, showing how legally protecting their businesses gave them confidence, pointed them in the right direction, saved them money, saved them sleepless nights, all kinds of things. But, honestly, it was just so cool.

Like, if you and I sat down for coffee after I had done this interview with everybody, I just would have been speechless. Because I, honestly, just sat down to chat with these four incredible people thinking, you know, we’re just having a little chat. But I walked away just so impressed with what everyone is doing.

Sometimes we don’t take enough time to think about, first of all, the impact that we’re having. Or, you know, I don’t even sometimes realize how helpful my own customers think that my products are. And I don’t always hear about the little things, like they all shared so many little things in this interview, about stuff that they were able to do with the Ultimate Bundle that I didn’t even know about. So, it was so cool for me to hear that.

I also just started to get really overwhelmed, not to get to – I don’t know – in it, but I just get so overwhelmed sometimes thinking about how much impact everybody is making. Like, think about all the impact your clients are then making on other people because of the things that you’re working with them on. And then, that ripple effect that it has around the world is, I think, just very, very cool. And you should be very proud of yourself for whatever you’re doing now and in the future.

So, who are these four incredible humans that I brought on to chat with you about legally protecting their business, some of the roadblocks they’ve hit, what brought them to want to legally protect their business, whether or not they think it’s worth it to get the Bundle, or how much time it really took them, and how they found the supportive community, all that kind of stuff. Who are these people?

All right. Let’s dive in. So, number one, we had Karin Nordin. Karin is a PhD expert in health behavior change and a published mindset theory researcher. After graduating with her doctorate, Karin had a striking realization, the typical self-help and productivity approaches of the personal development industry were shockingly inconsistent with the actual research on change. That inconsistency became the fuel for her business, Body Brain Alliance, where she’s on a mission to teach compassion for change techniques that help dedicated self-improvers become their 2.0 selves.

All right. So, I’m going to link to everything for Karin below. And you’re going to hear Karin in this episode. I’m so excited to share with you all of her brilliance.

Next up, we had Mya Nichol. So, Mya is a highly sought after Instagram marketing expert and business coach who has taught over 5,000 students worldwide. Mya works with service-based businesses and coaches to attract their ideal customer grow their Instagram presence and build, grow, and scale their business online.

You’re going to love Mya. If you don’t know her already, she’s absolutely delightful and definitely, definitely has some of the most helpful and useful content on Instagram about marketing your business there, so you definitely want to check her out below.

Next up, we had Chris Castillo. Chris is the founder of Empowered Achievers, where Chris work as a coach for high achievers helping them to reignite their career spark. She supports them as they find their career north star and build a personalized rubric for better career decisions.

Chris is the best. She’s just so funny. She’s become such a dear friend of mine, she cracks me up. And you’re going to love her in this episode. But Chris does career fulfillment with people and she is just absolutely incredible and has gotten so much out of the Bundle, as you’ll hear.

And last but definitely not least, one of my favorite humans, Athena Concannon. Athena is a certified fitness and nutrition coach with specializations in both pre and post natal fitness and women’s metabolism. In her signature program, Balanced Body, she helps burned out women reclaim their time, optimize their energy, and get the body change they want without having to overhaul their lives or feel restrictive in the process.

I’ve known Athena for many years, and I just love, adore, and respect her so much. And I really love her approach to health and fitness and self-care. She’s just such a down to earth breath of fresh air to me, and so I just love her and I know you will, too.

Okay. Without further ado, I want to make sure we get into this episode and you hear all of these incredible women’s thoughts on what it’s been like in the Ultimate Bundle. So, let’s dive in and I hope you’ll reach out to me, send me a DM on Instagram and let me know if you have any questions that come up for you after listening to this episode. And definitely go give them a little love on Instagram as well. See you on the other side.

All right. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m so excited to have all of you here. It means so much to me for you all to be here with me today. And I was hoping we could just kick things off a little bit. Maybe, Chris, you could kick things off with just telling us a little bit about what brought you to the Ultimate Bundle. Like, what was going on in your business, in your life that made you even look for legal stuff like that?

Chris Castillo: Sure. Yeah. Gladly. Yes. So, I was brought to the Ultimate Bundle by way of Sam. So, actually, Sam and I had gotten connected through working with a shared coach in the past, and that’s how we first got put in touch. But it felt very fortuitous, because legal had always been kind of the element of my business that I was like, “You know what? I think this is technically fine.” It’s the thing you don’t want to look too closely at because that feels stressful and you rather just do the ignorance is bliss thing for a while. And meeting Sam was such a wonderful gift for many reasons.

But, particularly, I think being able to do the Bundle has really helped my business. I was at a place where I had been in business for a couple of years at that point. And I had things in place, but I didn’t have a comprehensive overhaul, nor did I have something that I could feel really, really good about. And so, that’s really what brought me to the Bundle.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. That’s really cool to hear because I think a lot of people think that it’s only, like, beginners or something like that. But, actually, for many of you, you were already up and running. What about you, Athena? What was going on in your business when you decided to up level your legal stuff?

Athena Concannon: Yeah. I think for me, I was really starting to shift from more of a blog as a hobby to my business where I make money. And this is my fulltime income now, and I wanted something that would help me be more official and feel like it wasn’t just a side hobby anymore. So, that’s where I definitely needed that legal support.

And you and I had connected as friends through the blogging world before, so I knew it was a no-brainer that I was going to work with you. And, really, the Ultimate Bundle has helped me, just like Chris said, over the years. It keeps on giving, for sure. I also feel like, for me, it helped me with my confidence when I was selling my one-on-one programs for the first time. It keeps doing that, too, even now six years in.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. I’m so glad. And shoutout to Fitness & Feta, Athena’s former blog that I absolutely adored. And she always had great workouts and great recipes. She still does, just now under her own name, Achieve with Athena, so you can check that out. But that’s really good to hear. And, Karin, what about you?

Karin Nordin: Yeah. So, I think my situation was a little bit different in that I had gotten certified for free, actually, because I worked as a curriculum writer for Precision Nutrition and they do certifications. And so, they were like, “Here. You’re helping write this, you might as well do it.” So, I was like, “Okay.”

So, I got certified for free and I wanted to start coaching some clients. But I am very paranoid about the legal side of things. And I’m also very paranoid about the accounting side of things and the numbers and, like, having everything lined up. And so, I had no intention of taking my business past tiny side hustle status. Which now it has evolved, and it is my fulltime thing. But that was not my intention in the beginning. I just wanted to make sure that I was absolutely sound when it came to legal practices.

And so, I think I don’t even know how I found you, Sam. I think one of my friends at PN had recommended you because I know, like, a lot of the PN coaches use your templates when they become coaches. But that’s how I found you and then my business evolved from there.

Sam Vander Wielen: Oh, that’s good to know. That’s really cool. I didn’t know that that’s how you got started. Very cool. And, Mya, last but definitely not least.

Mya Nichol: So, for me, I didn’t get everything legally set up immediately inside of my business. And looking back, one of my clients was like, “What is the one thing looking back?” I’m like, “I wish that I would have set this up sooner.” But, obviously, I’m grateful that I set it up when I set it up. But, for me, I had a course and I had a membership already up and running. I had been doing one-on-one coaching and my business was starting to grow and grow and grow.

And I was also a little bit paranoid about the legal stuff as well.
And I was like, “I don’t want to be sued. I don’t want to lose all my money.” I don’t even know what to do if someone is going to come to me and say, “I want a refund,” because I have literally nothing set up. And so, I actually went to Google first, and I don’t even remember what I typed in, probably like some sort of legal templates. And I ended up purchasing a template through just some generic – I don’t even know. It was, like, $25 or something. And I was like, “Oh. This is a good place to start.”

And I honestly can’t remember the exact moment, but I remember very soon at the beginning of this year, of 2022 – which I know this will air in 2023 – I just had this moment where I was like, “My business is growing so quickly, I don’t have terms of use set in place.” I think I was also setting up my website at the time and I was like, “I don’t have privacy policy, disclaimers. I don’t have anything.” And so, then, instead of going to Google search, I actually went to Instagram search, and that’s how I found Sam. I was just doing a little Instagram search. I think I was searching, like, lawyers or maybe contracts or something along those lines, and that’s how I found Sam.

And so, I ended up purchasing the Ultimate Bundle. And for me, actually the first thing that I did was I went and I downloaded all those templates and I got them all set up in place. So, I actually didn’t even go through all of the content at the beginning. I just went straight to the templates and I just implemented those on my website. And I implemented those for my one-on-one coaching and all of my offers. And so, that’s how I got started.

Sam Vander Wielen: That’s really cool. I remember, Chris, when you joined the Bundle, of course, because it’s you, you would optimize your completion of the Bundle. You were like, “I’m doing these things on this week and this thing on this week.” And you were actually the inspiration – I don’t know if you know this – behind me, adding a training to the Bundle called The Ultimate Roadmap to Success, which is basically teaching people how to go through the Bundle successfully. And I was like, “Chris did this.”

Chris Castillo: Oh, my gosh. That’s so funny. I did not know that. That’s on being, you know – but, yeah, I remember that.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Well, I think it would be cool because so many of you shared about how you were in different places and kind of came to the Bundle for different reasons. So, maybe if we just go back through in the same order, if, Chris, you kick things off with sharing, do you remember if there was a first win or some sort of shift that happened once you got this stuff in place?

Chris Castillo: I mean, honestly, I was thinking about it. And I think the biggest thing is just you cannot pay enough for peace when you’re an anxious person, when you’re a worrier, when you’re a worst case scenario person. And as someone who has always catastrophize and been like, “Right. But what if it is that one percent of the time where X, Y, and Z?” I think it’s such a no-brainer for me to get legal in place. So, honestly, I think the biggest thing was immediate win was just finally feeling like, “Okay. I don’t have to have this be living rent free in the back of my head every day being like, ‘You really should probably look at that and that’s something you might want to take care of.'”

And particularly, there’s so many things that are within it because even talking about business insurance, and GDPR rules for email lists, and all of that stuff, it’s so considered. And so, those are some of my earliest, like, beyond just adopting the templates and stuff, like, up leveling all of my contracts for my one-on-one and my group programming. Being able to do that was huge but also having those other elements. I remember doing a huge email overhaul and you were like my bible for that. It was so helpful.

Sam Vander Wielen: Oh, good. I’m glad. Yeah. The value of unloading that mental load is really good. Yes, for sure. Athena, what about you?

Athena Concannon: So, I definitely agree with Chris about the peace of mind. And I think I remember just feeling this immense sense of relief that I could just know that this was taken care of. Yes, from the worst case scenario perspective, because, Chris, I’m definitely with you, like, anxious person. All the worst case scenarios.

But, also, with just knowing that now I can free up space and mental energy to work on other areas of my business, because as we all know, when you’re starting out, there are so many areas that you have to get up and running, and kind of figure out your own, and you are doing all the roles in your business before you can hire other people to help. And so, to just know that this part of my business was taken care of, especially since it’s something I have no business trying to do on my own, knowing that was covered could allow me to focus on other things and free up that mental energy.

And that’s something I say to my own clients in the fitness world as well, like, why try to piecemeal and guess your way through your own fitness or through your own nutrition when you could have somebody take that out of it for you?

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Totally. And I don’t think we realize, we talk a lot about in online business about hiring and offloading those tasks. But we don’t often think about this stuff, like with legal or accounting. Like, getting this stuff off your plate is such a huge value. And like you said, Athena, we wear so many hats. But I always say we don’t have to. We kind of take that on with entrepreneurship, but you don’t necessarily have to put them all on. And so, we can also ask someone else to wear that hat. So, I always wanted the Ultimate Bundle to be the hat for other people. You know, the legal hat. Yeah, Chris?

Chris Castillo: I just wanted to add, to that point, I think that’s the thing. It’s the unsexy investment that you super need to make. Because I think to your point, so many people are like, “I want to hire someone for social media,” or I want to do this or I want to do that, which are all great things to hire people for. But I think they forget this other side and it’s, well, don’t build your house on a horrible foundation. We’re forgetting that there are all these other really important elements to have and don’t just get distracted by the buzzy thing. So, totally agree with that.

Athena Concannon: Yeah. I could not agree more with the direction that’s going to. And for maybe somebody who’s listening to this and just starting out and wondering where to go first with the hire, like for a social media person, you might not necessarily want to go in a certain direction until you’ve even been at it for a while with finding your voice or have more clarity around your messaging, that kind of thing. And so, I feel like with legal, it is what it is, and that is a very steady foundation that you can give your business as you continue to grow.

Sam Vander Wielen: Totally. Yeah. And, Karin, do you remember any initial wins or takeaways?

Chris Castillo: Yeah. So, I was a PhD student at the time, which meant that I had been kind of given a boundary problem. Because when you’re a PhD student, you’re the doer, you accommodate to everyone’s needs. And so, when I started, I only had three or four clients. But all of a sudden, I was moving sessions for this client, and bending rules for that client, and refunding this client but not that client. And so, I was all over the place.

And when I sat down and went through the one-on-one contract, I was like, “Oh, I have to write out all of my rules. I have to write out what’s okay and what’s not okay.”

And my PhD is in behavior change, and so one of the things I coach people on is how to establish and maintain boundaries in their life. And that’s one of the best techniques you can do, is to actually have a written and communicated boundary. That’s step one and two of holding boundaries, write them down, communicate them.

And so, I think that’s kind of a benefit of legal that we don’t really talk about, is, it gives you something to rely on and it gives you, quite frankly, a firmer backbone and a more fair business, because you are treating everybody equally and you’re not giving one client a way to slide because you like them better than your other client.

Sam Vander Wielen: Totally. Yeah. And that clarity that just comes with that, it’s easy. And I think that, you know, we’ve talked a few times now about mental load, and so this idea of every single time, making it like, “Okay. Am I going to give Karin the refund? But now Chris also wants this, but Athena needs the 30 day extension.” It’s a lot of time and mental energy.

I even have to step in with the team now all the time and I hear sometimes smatterings in the background, “What’s going on?” And I’m like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. We’re spending way too much time doing this.” It’s clear, there’s no ambiguity here. We shouldn’t be spending time as a team. We can be doing so much other stuff to move forward. And we’re accommodating people left and right and trying to do all this stuff and it’s a distraction. And a lot of what we’re all talking about, too, is that distraction, that mental load. What about you, Mya?

Mya Nichol: I feel like everyone took all of the fun things and said it 100 times more eloquently than I would have said it. So, thank you for all of that.

I think the only thing that I would add to that is something that’s been really, really helpful for me since the very beginning, but especially now as I continue growing my business, especially for one-on-one coaching. It has been really, really awesome to communicate, yes, the boundary side of things, but also the expectations for the clients, and then also what the client can expect of me, and not something when I didn’t have contracts set in place or terms of use or anything set in place legally. When I was doing these one-on-one calls, these things would come up of like I didn’t know about this or I didn’t know that I had to show up and be prepared or I didn’t know that you were going to show up and be prepared.

And it’s like, that’s all now written in my contract of this is what’s expected of you as a client. This is what you can expect of me. And if they don’t agree to that, then obviously we can chat about that. But it’s just very, very nice that that’s written in place. Like, yes, the boundary side of things, but also how to show up and actually get the most out of our time together.

Sam Vander Wielen: Actually, we can go in reverse order. We’ll start with Mya first. I think it would be helpful if you could share your thoughts on when people are starting out or they’re just starting to really dive in to their businesses, maybe taking it to the next level, taking it fulltime, they’re getting hit with a lot of requests of where to put their money. There are courses. There are people. There are things. There’s tools, programs, whatever. And it can be really hard as a business owner to know.

And so, sometimes what I hear on my end is like, “Well, I’m not sure if I should buy this yet because I’m going to buy this course instead or this other thing instead.” So, could you speak to that business owner about kind of how you would suggest prioritizing or how they should balance this idea that they have a budget, obviously, but they also have to get this part done.

Mya Nichol: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up because that was the other thing I was going to add but totally forgot. This year, the Ultimate Bundle by far is the best investment that I’ve made in my business. And I’ve made a lot of investments in my business. You know, I purchased programs and master classes. I have a business coach. I had a business coach previously.

I mean, I’ve made a lot of investments in my business, and by far the Ultimate Bundle has been the best investment for all the reasons that we previously just said, you know, setting the boundaries, having clear expectations, having that peace of mind. I mean, that alone as a business owner, if you’re really wanting to take your business seriously, I mean, if you’re wanting to scale to the 5K, 10K, 25K, 50K, 100K months, it’s inevitable that things are going to come up. No matter how amazing your clients are, things are going to come up, things are going to happen. And, obviously, I’m not saying to think the worst of all of your clients, but also to have these things set in place to make your life easier.

And I think it just goes back to the system. Like for me, it was taking up so much of my time to be bouncing around of like, “Okay. Well, I’m going to let this person cancel, but then this person not cancel. And then, this person, they didn’t show up to their call or they were five minutes late, should I let them go five minutes over?” It’s all these different things. Basically, five minute increments, but those five minute increments add up, especially if you’re doing this part-time. But just in general, as a business owner, there’s a lot of different things that you could be spending that five minutes on that’s going to get you to where you really want to go.

And so, for me, it’s just having these systems set in place. I know exactly how to handle it. My team now knows exactly how to handle it. And so, I mean, I can’t even imagine not having this setup in my business. Just thinking back on how it’s helped me, not just at the beginning of my business, but where I’m at right now.

I mean, I’ve had people who have disputed payments and I’ve been able to win those disputes because of my terms of use. And these are things that are not the glamorous side of entrepreneurship that people never talk about. But it’s inevitable. It’s going to happen. People are going to want refunds. People are going to dispute their payments. They’re going to do all sorts of crazy things. And it’s not necessarily your fault as a business owner. But when you have these systems set in place, like for me, the first time it happened, I was like, “Oh, my gosh. This is happening right now. My first dispute.” I was in tears. But then, I realized I already had the system set in place to be able to handle these situations.

And so, yes, the peace of mind starting out of knowing that those are in place, but also the peace of mind just moving forward that you are protected and you have a system to be able to handle that. And then, eventually, you have a system that if you hire someone onto your team, that you can just easily hand it over to them to be able to handle that as well.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Totally. I mean, Mya, for anyone who doesn’t know already, has experienced a massive amount of growth in her business this year. And I think a lot of times people will say to me like, “Well, I’ll take care of legal when,” like when I get big, when I make a lot of money, when I whatever. And Mya is obviously there now already, but thank goodness you had this stuff in place.

And I think two things people don’t realize that, one, you’re going to need it along the way because then it’s too late. But two – and I don’t know if this has been true for you, too, Mya – but I feel my business nowadays, it’s been a few years now of like multi-six figure month every single month. This is just normal now. Legal takes up more of my time now than it ever did before. I spend so much time writing our own contracts, dealing with nonsense, having to go after stuff, trademarks, copyright. I do so much more now. It only gets bigger. And it’s more volume that we’re dealing with.

People also sometimes have this expectation that once your business is successful, they don’t need to pay because they think you’re successful. And we would literally get emails being like, “Why do I have to pay you? Aren’t you making a lot of money?” So, it’s really just always interesting to me when people are like, “Oh. I’ll take care of that once I get there.” It’s like, No, no. And also, where is there? Like, there is no apex. It’s just hopefully going to keep going. That’s the goal.

Mya Nichol: Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, just this year alone, with the amount of disputes that I’ve had, without my terms of use and what I have set up in my business, I would have lost tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not talking, like, $100. Like, tens of thousands of dollars, and that’s a lot of money. Even if you are making, you know, six figure months, like $10,000, that’s a lot of money.

Sam Vander Wielen: It’s a lot.

Mya Nichol: And I experienced this heavily last month with Black Friday. I had my biggest month yet. And I had the most amount of disputes for the exact same reason that you were saying, Sam, where people are like, “Well, you’re making money, so why do I need to pay you?” And it’s like, “I’m still a business. This is still my time and energy.” So, yeah, definitely, I would say 100 percent, it has been helpful all along the way. But as my business continues to grow, it becomes increasingly more helpful.

And now thinking about the value of the Ultimate Bundle, I would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for that information just because of how much it saved me. And not just how much it saved me in terms of money, but just peace of mind and stress. It’s like, because now these disputes are coming up frequently, I mean, almost like on a week to week basis, I know how to handle it. I almost have like scripts now or it’s like copy and paste. And I know I’m going to win it because of what I have in place inside of my business.

And I know that if I didn’t have that set up in my business even months ago, because I have a membership and so people will try to dispute payments from, like, six months ago or they’ll be like, “Well, I forgot to cancel. I’m just going to dispute this payment.” And if I didn’t have that terms of use that they had checked the checkbox at checkout, like, six months ago, I wouldn’t have been able to handle that now and win that dispute now. So, it’s like you have to think of it in terms of that. I guess, the best time to start is always day one of your business is basically what I was going to say.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Totally. I was going to ask our resident behavior change specialist, you know, what you would tell people about maybe shifting this mindset a bit about what I call the “Let me see if make this thing work first before I bet on myself.” That’s kind of what it feels like to me. But you tell me, Karin.

Karin Nordin: Yeah. Well, here’s what I have to say. No one outside of the online business world cares how many Instagram followers you have. Like, you cannot write the number of Instagram followers you have on a mortgage application. You cannot write your business coach’s name on a mortgage application. You cannot write the fancy course you took on a business application or on a mortgage application.

And I know this because I bought a fricking condo, and the only reason I was able to buy a condo is because I had a two year record of having my online business. And I had all of the established documents that I need, which I had because I went through the Bundle and so I knew how to establish my business properly. And had I been missing a single one of those documents, I wouldn’t literally not have a home. And so, we would be renting, we would be somewhere, but I would not be a homeowner if it wasn’t for the Ultimate Bundle.

I work with a lot of coaches, especially we have some stuff that I do for coaches, and one of the things that I tell them is, take yourself seriously from the beginning. Because we do know from behavior change that the number one way for you to change your beliefs is to act as if that belief is true. And so, if you want your business to be real, you need to act as if it is real. And real in the real world means recognized by the government, recognized as a legal entity. And so, that needs to be a priority above anything else, in my opinion.

And I will tell people that even though I am one of the people who sells stuff to coaches at the beginning of their business. I will say, “Hey. I would rather you spend your money on this other thing than my product because it is more important.” Point blank period.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. And by the way, I’m an advocate for people buying other things other than my own stuff. It’s just that I always think it’s interesting. Like, I think it’s helpful from a mindset perspective when you start the business to factor that this and whatever you need to do, like financially, in getting the business formed is part of the budget. And so, sometimes when I think people take this budget and they’re like, “This budget goes to this course,” as opposed to thinking like, “No. No. This all has to be part of the equation.” But, Mya, I saw you had something to add.

Mya Nichol: This is kind of one of those random things that I just ended up being perfect for me to talk about. So, I was listening to a program that I purchased last night, and in the comment section, there’s this whole conversation around coaches, and terms of use, and contracts, and everything like that. There’s just a whole thing that’s going on inside the coaching space right now.

But what was really, really interesting is one of the comments down below, they literally said, she commented and she was like, “I don’t care at what stage you are in your business, if you don’t have terms of use set up, I will not purchase from you. I don’t care how experienced you are, how amazing your offers are because, to me, it shows me that you’re not taking your business seriously.” And that was, basically, word for word what her message said.

And I was like, “That’s super interesting.” And I would have to agree with that. Like, to me, it’s like you are taking your business seriously when you have your business legally registered, when you have terms of use set in place. Because not only is it protecting you as a business owner, but it’s also helping me as the client as well. And I think that that’s something else that we don’t think about a lot as business owners is like, “Oh. It’s just about me, and thank the goodness.”

I’m legally protected, but it’s like as a client, it’s really, really important for me. I would never go to my business coach and pay tens of thousands of dollars if they didn’t have a contract. I’d be like, “This is a joke, right?” And that’s not to say that it has to be tens of thousands of dollars. Like, even if it’s $200, I want to know, again, what’s expected of me, what’s expected of you, how I’m protected inside of this program. Anyways, there’s just a bajillion things that I could say about why the Ultimate Bundle is so amazing.

Sam Vander Wielen: I’m glad you brought that up, because it is true that legal stuff goes both ways. And the same assurances that you’re all looking for from your clients that they’re going to show up and they’re going to pay you, they are looking for from you. Because you’re also some random girl on the internet who they’re hoping like, “Boy. Athena told me she offers 12 calls, but she didn’t send me any contract. How do I know? Is she going to show up? What if she bounces? What if I just never hear from her again?” So, we have to remember that it works both ways. So, I’m glad you add that. Athena, did you have something to add?

Athena Concannon: Yeah. I just think that this part of the conversation is a really nice mindset reminder that what you give energy to truly grows and like attracts like. So, if you’re going to be somebody who is maybe hiding or pretending that the legal side of things doesn’t exist or you’re pushing it off until later, perhaps that becomes maybe the energy that you’re putting out and attracting an audience that’s going to just say like, “I could use your services, but maybe I will purchase later on.” I really do believe in that kind of like attracts like mindset.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. You’re so right. Karin, did you have something to add on this?

Karin Nordin: I was just going to say, you know, I think a lot of the legal conversation also tends to surround really scary things. But it’s also really fun and empowering. Like, I have a selfie from the moment I established my business. And I look back at that selfie at every major milestone and I’m like, “Wow. In January of 2021, I established Body Brain Alliance.” And for example, “In like a-day-and-a-half, we will cross half-a-million dollars.” And it is insane to me that that has happened that quickly and I have that milestone. It’s such a memorable moment for me.

And so, I just wanted to bring that in the conversation, too, because it can be really empowering, and it can be really special, and it can make you feel the number one thing. I think new coaches lack is confidence, and this is one of the things that really brings that confidence to the table.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Totally. I love that you. You have that picture, by the way. Chris, did you have something to add?

Chris Castillo: Yeah. I mean, yes, it gives you so much confidence. And to me, the investment is so stupidly worth it, to Mya’s point, of the fact that you are so giving of yourself, that there’s a community where we can ask questions, that you’re continuously updating the content. For anyone who’s listening, if they don’t know, we get monthly email saying, “Okay. Here’s the status and what’s going on. And it’s time to update this, that, and the other.” And you need that because, otherwise, you’re kind of plugging along and all of a sudden you forget and you’re like, “Oh. It’s been two years since I looked at my contracts,” or something like that.

So, not only is that super helpful – I know we’ve talked about this endlessly – but I do think it’s really important of like, yeah, don’t wait to patch the boat until it’s sinking. I think, in general, people have a real tendency to romanticize things in life. I don’t know. I see it all over. I feel like it’s the ultimate TikTok conversation these days of people being like, “Romanticizing my walk to the deli,” or whatever, which like, go for it, more power to you. But I think it can lead to really dangerous things.

Like, I’m in the career fulfillment space and I always see people do this with jobs – I always use this as an example – people getting obsessed with farm talk and then thinking that they’re going to start a farm, but they know nothing about it and they’ve given zero thought to the work that it would actually entail. And then, they try and do something really dramatic. And all of a sudden, they’re like, “In bad news, I don’t like waking up at 5:00 a.m. and I don’t like picking up animal poo.” And I’m like, “Well, you should have thought about this.”

And similar thought here of, like, don’t wait until you’re sinking to try and deal with it. It’s just so wild to me what people do when we’re like, “Oh. That feels like a really inconvenient conversation.” And it can be scary but, alternatively, to that point of it is just so empowering to have it off of your mind.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Totally. And speaking of speaking our minds, does anybody have anything about the community aspect of the Bundle that they’d like to share? Like, whether you’ve been able to ask questions or you’ve gotten something from other people asking questions? Mya.

Mya Nichol: So, like I said at the beginning when you were asking how we got – I don’t know what the question was exactly, but I basically said I joined the Bundle and I just went through the contracts. And so, for me, I’ve just plugged into the Bundle whenever I felt like I needed it. So, I had set up my LLC already, so I didn’t really need to go through that. But probably on a monthly basis, I will plug into the Ultimate Bundle and go into something and go through the training, and be like, “Oh, okay. Yes, I am good on this.”

An example of this was I had someone who emailed me and they’re like, “This is illegal to have.” And I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” And it was inside of one of my contracts. And so, I went into the Bundle and I was like, “No. Actually, you’re wrong.” So, it just gave me that peace of mind as well.

But what I was going to say is I was actually looking at memberships and other people who are running memberships. So, I went into the Facebook Group page, and I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve searched in the search bar just a word and just gone through for, like, either peace of mind or ideas of even just running a business. Or another thing would be business insurance and looking what other people are doing, like who they’re getting for their business insurance.

I’ve tuned in to the Facebook Group page. I haven’t actually posted anything in there, but I’ve tuned in, I would say, at least three times a month just in the search bar, just searching what other people are doing and how I can learn from them. And you’re always in the comment section as well, Sam, responding and giving feedback. And so, I have found the community so, so, so extremely helpful. Just learning from other people, not even like me necessarily posting in there, but it’s also just nice to know that I can post in there, too, if I weren’t to have been able to find the answer to my question.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Totally. I was hoping that it would be like a resource bank as it got more and more. And now I’ve had it for, like, five six years, so it’s pretty built up at this point. Karin, did you have your hand raised?

Karin Nordin: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, so you probably don’t know this, but part of what I did research on when I was in my PhD was student engagement. And so, I know a lot about online program engagement. And the engagement in the Bundle is nuts. Like, it blows the statistics about online engagement that you find in reputable journals completely out of the water. And I think that’s because, as entrepreneurs, it can be very isolating. Like, you’re not often in a group of entrepreneurs having a conversation about the most vulnerable stuff, like the things that are going wrong, the people who want to refund.

And so, I just peek through the Ultimate Bundle every once in a while. Whenever I’m on Facebook, I look through. And it’s almost like I can anticipate legal issues before they happen because someone else goes through it. And I’m like, “Oh. If that happened to us, we would be in the exact same situation.” And then, I go and I fix it ahead of time and I am able to, like, reply back and look at other people for clues and things like that.

So, I think that’s my research hypothesis on part of why the Bundle engagement is so good is because it is such a huge part of the learning. And it’s one of the things that I think makes this different than just going and buying a legal template. Like, you can buy a legal template somewhere else, but you’re not going to get 50 other entrepreneurs giving their two cents about exactly how they implemented it for this or that or the other thing.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. That’s so true. And I know that a lot of people, like Mya, use it as more of – well, I mean this in a good way – a lurker kind of situation where you’re just hanging out reading, because that’s good too. And like Mya said, a lot of people are posting stuff, so then you don’t need to ask, so that’s helpful.

But, also, just so everybody knows, because this wasn’t really an issue, maybe, until about a year or two ago. All of a sudden, for the first time, we started getting people being like, “I don’t like Facebook. I don’t want to be on Facebook.” So, we do actually have a Kajabi community as well. So, you can actually comment directly on, like, the templates or the training. And I respond in there, too, just so that people know, if you’re not a Facebook person, totally fine, you can do that too.

Because I know Chris has to go soon, I would love for us to go around, and it would be really fun for me to hear – and, Chris, you can kick things off since I know you have to go soon – tell me about something that you’re excited about that’s going on in your business right now. I would just be very happy to hear about that.

Chris Castillo: Sure. Bundle related or just –

Sam Vander Wielen: No. Just you related.

Chris Castillo: Okay. Yeah. So, most exciting thing is I’m revamping some stuff. It’s the end of the year now – I know this is going to get posted in the new year – I’ve been revamping some of the things for my self-study programming, which is really exciting. My self-paced programming, it’s been live for a while now, but actually reworking some of the things for that and growing some of those things. We have a free workshop that leads into that, which has been really fun and has been very inspired by you, Sam, because I feel like your workshop process is pretty amazing.

But, yeah, that’s what I’ve been excited about. It’s just getting a lot of, like, bigger systems in place. Which, I guess ultimate plug for the Bundle, in that I don’t think a lot of those set it and forget it things could happen until you had those pieces in place because you would be too busy bailing the water out of your sinking ship to deal with it.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Well, and what Chris is referring to is the fact that if you sell anything, like courses, memberships, ebooks, digital products, as I always say, things that people can purchase when you’re sleeping, which hopefully is the goal for you in the sense of making money when you’re not actually working directly with clients, is that, it’s the same thing we’ve been talking about this entire show, which is that if you don’t have the legal stuff in place when the person purchases, then it went out the window. So, I always give the final sale jeans analogy, you have to know it’s final sale and all that good stuff. So, yeah, that’s a really good point.

You also, Chris, have made a big push on TikTok this year and become quite the TikTok queen. So, I want you to share with everybody how that’s going.

Chris Castillo: Yeah. I mean, it’s been great. It really up leveled my business this year. And so, there’s kind of two things happening, because the set it and forget it, as I mentioned, of doing some of those things that can run more in their sleep. There’s another factor which I didn’t mention because you can only see the top half of me right now, which is I am super pregnant. I’m due with a baby in less than a month. And so, it’s really crucial for me to have a lot of those things lined up before I go out on that leave. So, that’s why that’s been such a focus for me.

But it’s an interesting time because it’s been such a year of growth with TikTok. And it’s been really interesting because, yeah, it’s been completely blowing up over there. But it’s brought so many people into my business, which is why there were a lot of things, like the workshop that I run, something that I wanted to implement but it was kind of like a later day project.

And then, come February, I started posting on TikTok. And it started as an experiment of like, “Okay. You know what? I’m going to give myself two weeks and give it a shot and see what happens.” And I had one video do well and it kind of snowballed from there. And as a result, it kind of bumped that curve up. I was like, “Oh, shoot. I got to get some of these things in place to have the workshop.” Because I was like, “All these people are getting dumped into a super leaky funnel and this is not great.” And so, it really forced me to step things up.

So, yeah, it’s been a big year of growth and that’s been something I’ve been super excited about, is that workshop particularly. And it kind of coincides with both the growth of the business and the growth of my stomach as I get ready to go out of office.

Sam Vander Wielen: This is true. Speaking of your workshop, since I know you have to go, do you want to share about your workshop so people can find it?

Chris Castillo: Yeah. Gladly. So, it’s particularly for anyone who is kind of in second guessing their career. Primarily, the people I work with are, not even necessarily the folks who are miserable in their jobs and want career changes, but those who are just kind of doubting it and wanting more career fulfillment.

That was my experience. So, I had what I thought was my dream job in advertising. And, like, almost a decade ago, I went through what I call my existential career crisis where I realized, “Oh, no. I don’t think what I thought was my dream job is actually my dream.” And it’s the whisper that turns into the scream that makes you second guess every single thing you’re doing. And you start to think, “Oh, my God. Do I need to move to that farm in the middle of Vermont and buy a bunch of ducks and call it a day?”

And so, it’s really a workshop built for that. It’s called the Three Keys to Building a More Lifelong Aligned and Fulfilling Career. And it takes you through my process that I’ve taken all my clients through these last six years to help flush out what is actually engaging to you, what does fulfilling look like to you so you can build a career that fits into your life versus the alternative.

Sam Vander Wielen: That’s awesome. And I will make sure I share the link to the free workshop below. So, if you all want to take it, you can go check that out. Thank you so much, Chris.

Athena, I can’t wait to hear what you are so excited about. You have a lot going on in your business right now, too.

Athena Concannon: Yeah. I’m really excited because I am streamlining, basically, two different offers that I was selling. One was more nutrition focused and one was more workout and fitness focused. And I’m really streamlining them into one offer called Balanced Body, which is part course curriculum and part done with you group coaching. And, really, it’s scaling my one-on-one into this one group offer.

And I’m just really excited about it, because I think in the industry there are so many people that just focus on one piece of the puzzle and I was like, “Why am I focusing on just one piece of the puzzle kind of in each of these ways?” And so, not looking at your wellness and silos and bringing it together for a more holistic approach is really resonating with people.

And I’m just feeling the most in alignment about this way of offering things in my business that it’s just like I just can’t even wait already to be diving into what I have planned in January, even though I should be saying I’m excited for my vacation. Like, [inaudible]. I’m just really excited about it.

And I think, too, where Balanced Body is having a big impact, especially I work with a lot of really busy and burnt out moms, is all of the pieces of the fitness and nutrition that people aren’t considering really important, like time management, and boundary settings, and asking for help, and all these non-sexy things. Like, it’s so easy to focus on what workout we should do and what we should eat. But some of the day-to-day stuff, the reality that gets in the way, it’s really fun for me to help people troubleshoot.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. And you’ve been talking so much lately about self-care as the kind of unsexy or not popular forms of self-care too, right?

Athena Concannon: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that all of that matters when it comes to actually getting the result that you want, whether that’s consistent habits or body change. We have to be able to do it in a way that’s not going to overhaul our whole lives.

Sam Vander Wielen: Totally. And how has it been is a big question I know to ask, but how has it been this year now, navigating, building your business, and being a mother to two little ones under three?

Athena Concannon: It’s been challenging, for sure. I mean, the adjustment from one to two kids, that’s a whole nother topic for another day.

Sam Vander Wielen: That’s a whole separate podcast in of itself.

Athena Concannon: But, I mean, I’m really proud because right now Balanced Body is in beta. And I came back and having this space actually with my maternity leave from my business while my business was still running membership and everything in the background while I was on leave. But having that space gave me some clarity of where I wanted to make these changes. And so, coming back, like the month I was back from leave was my biggest month of the year. So, I’m not going to say it’s been easy, for sure, but I think actually having the maternity leave gave me that space.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s so cool that that happened. And what would you like to share with everyone? I think you have a legit fit checklist to share, right?

Chris Castillo: Yes. I have a checklist and it’s more of like a planning kind of checklist for things that you really can consider for your year as a whole and how to structure the seasons – I like to say, seasons of your fitness. Because a lot of people just try to go about fat loss or muscle building or performance, like doing the same exact thing the same exact way 365 days of the year. And that’s just not realistic because we are not robots and our life has things that happen. So, we’re not going to be able to do it that way. So, it’s really about helping you pinpoint what times of year personally and professionally makes sense to embark on different goals.

Sam Vander Wielen: That’s a really good idea. All right. Cool. I’ll make sure I share the link below. Thank you, Athena.

Karin, what’s going on in your business right now? What are you excited about?

Karin Nordin: So, I am excited about two weeks of vacation, which is great. But that is mostly because we just came off a very successful sort of half-launch, I guess you could call it. So, I have a membership called Change Academy, and we do a deep dive every month on a different change topic. So, our whole thing is compassion first, evidence-based change education. So, not the discipline over motivation stuff that you hear from everybody, but stuff that actually is compassion first that makes you feel good about yourself.

So, we cover a different topic every month. And we have a lot of coaches in that membership, and so they were kind of pushing and asking for can we get more evidence or education on how to actually use behavior change with our clients, and help our clients with consistency, motivation, all that stuff. So, we just launched that and this was our first month of doing it.

So, we give them a resource they can use with clients. Basically, it’s like a low cost mentorship style hot seat call. So, there’s a bunch of stuff and I’m just really excited to see how that takes off next year. And I get more time talking with other coaches, which is always something that I really enjoy too.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. That’s really cool. I like hearing how everyone is optimizing, not just their businesses, but they’re optimizing it for their life, which is really fun for me to hear. It’s always like a secret private goal of mine that I want everyone to do and not be working like crazy.

My friend, Sammy, always says, if we’re going to do that, we can go back to getting healthcare and a paycheck. Like, that’s true. That’s a good point.

And, Karin, where would you like everybody to come find you and learn more about the membership?

Karin Nordin: Yeah. So, our website is bodybrainalliance.com. If you click on the Change Academy tab, you’ll find all the deets. But then, you can also follow me on Instagram. It’s just @karinnordinphd. So, that’s a great place to start.

Sam Vander Wielen: Awesome. Thank you. And, Mya, what are you very excited about right now?

Mya Nichol: You know, I had, like, ten minutes to think about what my answer was going to be to this, and I still don’t have an answer. I feel like my answer is, I’m kind of excited about everything. I, personally, am all about finding joy in the journey of entrepreneurship. And that’s something that’s extremely, extremely important for me. And that I always want my students and my clients to be able to find joy in their journey, too, no matter what stage and phase and whatever is going on. So, that’s something that I obviously want to practice if I’m going to be teaching it.

But as of, like, the last four months, I’ve been experimenting with different offers. I figured out what my human design was. And so, I’ve been playing around with, like, how to use human design in business and in life, and that’s been really fun. I mean, I have a podcast that’s launching next year and a clothing line that’s launching next year.

So, I don’t know, I’m just kind of in this really fun, experimental phase of my business, if that makes sense, in terms of, like, content on Instagram and in my business. And it’s just been really, really fun to be able to interact with my community in a different way, basically, on a different week-to-week basis. Like, I’m throwing out master classes and I have a program next month.

And then, of course, I have my signature off for, IG University, which is a membership for Instagram growth for business owners. So, I’ve just got a lot of fun things. And I feel like if you are listening to this and you’re like, “Oh, I can’t wait to get to that phase in my business,” you will get there.

For the first eight months of 2022, and not necessarily, again, that I wasn’t enjoying the journey, I definitely was, but I only had really one offer. And I was really just building my brand, building my business. And, basically, I built a really solid foundation for me to then be able to experiment. Because I had the income coming in that was consistent, which allowed me to then experiment. It allowed me to hire people, which allowed me to then have more time to do the things that I loved inside my business.

So, if you’re listening to this, it’s going to happen. 2023 is your year. It’s going to happen this year or it can happen right now. I mean, it’s your business and you get to run it however you want to run it. But, yeah, I would say that that’s where I’m at right now, is just experimenting and having fun in my business.

Sam Vander Wielen: That’s awesome. I feel like you can tell with your content lately, especially on Stories, that you’re just excited and you’ve been whipping out offers and offering different stuff. And it’s cool to watch from my perspective. And I think there’s an upgrade your Instagram account in less than ten minutes checklist that you wanted to share, right?

Mya Nichol: Yes.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yes. Okay. Cool. So, I will make sure that we have the link to that for Mya down below. Before we wrap up, I want to do two things. One, I just wanted each of you, if you could, to tell me any parting words you would have for somebody who’s on the fence about the Bundle. When everyone listens to this, the Bundle will be on sale really soon. It’ll be a really short sale, actually. So, they’re going to have a week or so to decide. What would you tell them if they’re on the fence? And then, before we wrap up, I just want to have you all tell everybody where to find you. But anybody who wants to kick it off, go ahead. Go ahead, Athena.

Athena Concannon: I’ll go. So, I think and we might have touched upon this before, but just don’t think that you’re going to be the person that a legal issue won’t ever happen to you. So, if that is the one thing that helps you get you into the Ultimate Bundle, take that.

So, I know you just said one, but I have another one, too. Before, we were also talking about more fun and empowering parts of the Bundle being there when you first got your LLC and all the steps of the way, and I really have been able to relate to that as I’ve signed into the Bundle to get my first independent contractor contract, and the first time I ran a retreat, and the first time I set up my affiliate program. All of these milestones along the way, the Bundle is kind of there with you and cheering you on.

Sam Vander Wielen: It grows with you.

Athena Concannon: Yeah, it does.

Sam Vander Wielen: That’s awesome. Thank you.

Mya Nichol: That’s actually exactly what I was going to say, too, because, I mean, I’ve done the same thing where it’s like, “Oh. I’m bringing guest speakers into my membership.” And like, “Oh. I’m starting an affiliate program for my membership. Oh, now I’m starting a podcast.” It’s like, now I have all these different things. When I bring guest speakers on my podcast, I have a contract for that, that I can have written up.

And I don’t know, it’s just been really, really fun. I think originally when I plugged into the Ultimate Bundle, I was like, “Oh, there’s a lot of stuff in here that doesn’t really apply to me.” And now that I continue growing my business, I’m like, “Oh, actually that does apply to me. Oh, I’m actually really grateful that is in there.”

Because like I said previously, it’s really just been this thing, almost, I would say, like a legal best friend in my back pocket, if that makes sense. I just pull it out. And, seriously, I have the Kajabi app on my phone. And then, of course, I have the Facebook app so I can go into the Facebook Group. And so, literally, any time I have any sort of legal question, I know that Sam’s going to have answered it somewhere. And so, I just pull it out. You know, I use the little search tools in there and I’m going through all the modules. I mean, just basically anything that I need, like, it is that legal best friend in my back pocket.

And I also liked what Athena said of, don’t expect to be that person that legal stuff never is going to happen to you. It’s obviously good to love your community and your clients. But even if you have the best clients in the world, I promise you that something will still happen.

And take it from me, I mean, I’ve used the Ultimate Bundle more over the last three months than I have really the entire year. But I’m so grateful that I have had it over the entire year. So, I had these system set into place, where I was able to know how to handle these situations and I didn’t lose out on, you know, tens of thousands of dollars.

So, I have nothing but good things to say. I mean, I could sit here and probably just rant for an hour or more about all the good things in the Ultimate Bundle. But I’ll leave it at that.

Sam Vander Wielen: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And yeah, by the way, these legal road bumps, these little things that come up, they’re signs of growth, not a failure. You know, this is stuff going on. It means you’re working with more people. And because of that volume, it’s just inevitable. And I never say that kind of stuff from a place of watching out for the boogeyman behind your shoulder kind of thing. But that’s just kind of how business works, how life works.

Like, I always say to everyone, like, look at Target. You know, Target probably gets sued multiple, multiple, multiple times a day, right? They’re super successful. We all love Target. We all still go there and accidentally spend $200 when you meant to get toilet paper. And so, it happens. So, I just don’t want anyone to think like, “Oh. I have to prepare in case I mess up.” It’s like, “No. You’re just preparing because this is what happens in business. There’s nothing wrong with you.” And I hope everybody today sharing their stories, too, has normalize this experience for you.

Karin, what about you? Any parting words for our future Bundle members?

Karin Nordin: Yeah. I was going to say that the worst place to be is on the fence, because it takes your cognitive resources. There is an immense cognitive load every single time you have to make a decision. And when you have diminished cognitive resources, what do you do? You procrastinate.

And I know that’s a big issue for, especially, new people starting their business. And so, either decide you’re going to do it or decide you’re not going to do it for a specific period of time, and then revisit the decision. That would be my behavior change advice for you. Because sitting on the fence and constantly going, “Oh, I should do that. Oh, I should do that. Oh, I should do that,” it’s an energy leak. It’s draining out valuable resources that you could be using to build your business in other areas.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. And we all know we need that energy, right? It’s such a precious resource in this business, for sure. All right. So, let’s go around one more time and just tell everybody where to find you and how to best get in touch. Athena.

Athena Concannon: Instagram is the best for me. I’m just @athenaconcannon, my full name. And just DM is the best way. My website is achievewithathena.com. I like to keep it casual in the DMs.

Sam Vander Wielen: Perfect. She’s very responsive. Mya.

Mya Nichol: I’m also in the DMs too. I’m @myanichol on Instagram. That’s where I love to chat. Direct message is the best place. I’m not a huge fan of email. I was just telling my husband the other day, I was like, “I’m not a huge fan of whoever invented email.” I just like the quick conversations. So, if you email me, obviously I’m going to reply back to you. But that being said, lets chat in the DMs.

Sam Vander Wielen: And Mya will reply back out of obligation but she will not be thrilled about it.

Mya Nichol: Yes.

Sam Vander Wielen: Karin, what about you?

Karin Nordin: Yeah. The same thing, Instagram. It’s @karinnordinphd. And then, the same thing, you can DM me. If you DM me, I may not respond to you immediately, because as much as I love the DMs, I take breaks from them. But I would love to chat with you on there. And I will get back to you at some point.

Sam Vander Wielen: Good for you, by the way. And I can vouch for Chris, it’s @empoweredachievers on Instagram. Chris, who does career fulfilment. So, I’ll make sure that all of you are linked below, both your Instagram and websites and all that good stuff. So, please reach out to them, talk to them about their experiences. You don’t have to take it from me. But, also, please follow them, because all of these incredible women have incredible content and have great businesses, so they are all worth a follow, a purchase, all the good things. So, thank you guys so much for doing this. I really, really appreciate it. It’s been so fun.

Mya Nichol: Thank you for having us. I’ve had an awesome time chatting about this.

Sam Vander Wielen: Any time.

Athena Concannon: Thank you, Sam.

Sam Vander Wielen: You’re welcome. Thanks for being here.

Thanks so much for listening to the On Your Terms Podcast. Make sure to follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. You can also check out all of our podcast episodes, show notes, links, and more at samvanderwielen.com/podcast. You can learn more about legally protecting your business and take my free legal workshop, Five Steps to Legally Protect and Grow Your Online Business, at samvanderwielen.com. And to stay connected and follow along, follow me on Instagram, @samvanderwielen, and send me a DM to say hi.