She’s Built Multi Million-Dollar Funnels (What She Told Me)

Sam Vander Wielen: So you’ve got a great offer. You’re posting consistently and you are showing the heck up, but sales still feel random. One day it’s crickets. The next day you get a flood, you’re ready for more consistency, I don’t blame you. You want more leads, more sales, and a lot less scrambling. The problem, you’re not totally sure how this whole funnel thing actually works.

You’ve heard about it, but everything you’ve seen either feels too techy, too salesy, or to be honest, just too complicated. In today’s episode, I’m joined by copywriter and funnel optimization expert Katelyn Collins, and we are breaking down what a funnel really is, how to set one up without all the overwhelm and how to start building a sales system that brings in sales on autopilot. .

More than anything, I’m really excited for you to hear today’s episode because I felt like Katelyn broke down so many of the myths surrounding funnels, and she gives you a super simple, straightforward funnel that you can set up all on your own without investing in some big, fancy expert or a big tech stack either.

Katelyn Collins is a copywriter conversion rate optimization specialist, mentor for copywriters and a marketer of nearly 15 years. After stints as an in-house copywriter for a sober dance party startup and a marketing lead for a celebrity trainer’s New York City gym, Katelyn has spent the past eight years, immersed in the course creator space. Her copy and conversion rate optimization work has helped clients pull off multi six figure launches and hit million dollar years. Through her 12 week mentorship, The Copywriter Igniter™ she helps rising freelancers become $2,500 per project copywriters. Katelyn is my go-to when it comes to my funnel and digging into all the data and making my business tick on the backend. [00:02:00] So I am so excited to share this conversation with you.

Sam Vander Wielen: Hey, Katelyn, welcome to On Your Terms®.

Katelyn Collins: Thanks, Sam. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be on a call and not have it. Just be a client call and have it be something else.

Sam Vander Wielen: I get to talk to you all the time, but now I’m excited that everybody else gets to talk to you ’cause I love you so much and you’ve helped me in my business so much.

I’m wondering if you could tell everybody today if they’re gonna take this time, the next 30, 45 minutes and sit down and listen to us yap about funnels and funnel building, what are they going to get out of listening to this today?

Katelyn Collins: Well, hopefully the most KISS method, the keep it simple silly method because yeah, that’s what, that’s what I think you and I want them to walk away with ’cause we know how overwhelming it can be in the beginning. So as you listen to this listeners, if there’s a moment where you’re like, oh my gosh, that’s so much. Just chill. Don’t take it. And, we’re gonna help you walk away with just like the simplest way to start.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yes, absolutely. And so that you can get a simple method, a simple funnel set up so that you can bring in consistent leads, build your email list, make consistent sales, have new clients, have new calls, building your audience. Like that’s what we, me and Katelyn really want to help you today is like, just learn this like very simple system. And just as Katelyn said, this is like one bite at a time, like. A lot of what we’re like sharing about today is because between Katelyn and I, we have worked on this for so long, made mistakes, updated, reiterated, worked on a new one, like we have done this and, and this is not how my funnel today, as I always tell everybody, it’s not how I started. Right?

And so like it was built. Over time and you’re building lots and lots of different funnels and, and email sequences and things for clients over [00:04:00] time. So, I think it would be really helpful to start out with, like you and I were talking about this before we got on, but like there’s a lot of myth and misunderstanding I think about like what funnels are, we, I think in the beginning of the online business industry, it was a very like broey thing and they were complicated and all I picture in my head are like tons of like visual automations and things flying all over the place.

So I think it would be helpful for people to really understand what a funnel is and what maybe some of the variants and like options are that are available to them.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, essentially like you just kind of wanna think of your funnel as the thing where your business exists, and then there’s all these people out there who are struggling with a problem and they’re searching for a solution, and your funnel starts with whatever it is that you have existing on the internet that catches their attention, whether it’s a lead magnet, a webinar, something like that. And that top of funnel moment is when they enter your funnel.

So they’re on their customer journey, searching for a solution. They come into the top of your funnel, and now they’re kind of inside your world. And the rest of the funnel is what happens next? What landing pages do they see? What emails are they delivered? And the purpose of the entire funnel is just to get them closer and closer to the sale.

Sam Vander Wielen: I always explain to people as like it’s a marketing pathway. It’s essentially a path that you’re walking people down to get them to take some sort of action in like a very methodical step by step way. And so why are, why are funnels helpful to people to get set up in their businesses?

Katelyn Collins: I mean, we all have the goal to scale. We all are hopefully getting thousands of people onto our email list into our world every month, even more if we can. Clearly cannot be having one-on-one calls with all those [00:06:00] people to like sell our thing. It’s just a way to automate your business, automate sales so that you can just hang out really like at the top of the funnel, creating more stuff to get people coming in, and then the funnel does the rest of the work for you. But don’t be fooled. It’s not that you never touch the funnel again. Yeah.

You’re constantly optimizing it and like responding to how it’s performing, um, and changing it as you and I know. And, um, but yeah, but I mean, it just, it just helps people get the right introduction into what your solution is or what their solution to their problem needs to be and how that relates to what you sell.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah, exactly. Okay. I, you gave me some really good examples before we got on today about, you know, I think a lot of people who are listening are probably very familiar with the traditional, which I also do, but like the traditional webinar model of like . The webinar’s, the freebie. There’s this offer at the end that’s, you know, time sensitive, there’s urgency. Um, they receive a series of emails built, packed with urgency and all this kind of stuff to buy. And that’s kind of maybe some people who are listening, that’s their idea and conception of a funnel. What are some other options, especially for people who are just getting started or maybe just don’t even like webinars? What are some other options of funnels that people can look at?

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, so you can even have an experience where someone comes into, whether it’s a lead magnet or maybe just they opt into, like, I have a How to start copywriting video guide. That’s like a 25 minute, me just like face to camera just hitting on these like 10 points.

So my coach, Joanna Wiebe, I’m in Copy School Professional with Joanna Wiebe. She talks to us about creating the minimum viable funnel. She’s like, just get that phone out and like talk to your audience, and that is going to be the thing that they opt into. And so they opt into that. And then what happens next is just maybe a few short emails encouraging them to book a call. Simple, where you just have just like a, a video of you talking or a PDF guide, and then you have a couple of emails getting them to book a call. And then on the call, you can sell them into your program. And I know some people are like, gosh, I hate that.

The whole point is like not to have to like do that manual labor of being on calls and all that stuff, but in the beginning, that’s typically the most effective.

And when you don’t have tons and tons of leads coming through just yet, like give those people a hands-on experience, get them to book a call because you know they’re more likely to purchase if they’re, they have that face-to-face time with you and you kind of need to put everything in your corner when you don’t have tons of leads coming in just yet.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah, that’s really smart for, I imagine, for service providers to pull in consistent leads and nurture them and you know, I personally would probably use the funnel to make sure I’m like whittling down who’s actually a fit for my program. So you’re also not getting on tons of calls with people and you can do that through the funnel itself.

Like I used to have emails when I had a free call that was like a, who this is for and not for, and this is what the call will look like and not look like. Like I will not be giving you advice on this call. This is really to see if you’re a fit. Like that was really helpful even to like save my time. So that’s a really good example for service provider.

What about people who are out trying to create digital products, selling courses, memberships, and trying to set up a funnel for something like that.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah. So I mean, believe it or not, like the example I just gave yes. Is for service providers, but I also like there are no rules. Yeah. Like you can also use that to sell your course.

And I know I use something similar, like I get on calls when I’m launching, or launching is different than funnels, but I get on calls to sell my course.

So in the beginning, like I just think it’s like you, you do whatever you need to do to make the sales, and sometimes it’s just like looking at the situation and it’s like, okay, what [00:10:00] actions do I need to take with these emails that I’m sending with this little funnel that I’ve set up with these potential leads that’s going to help me get the sale. With, with that example, like that can totally be for your course or for your membership. Um, there are no rules. Yeah. That’s what needs to happen. That that can happen.

But for the course in membership to go off and give a different tip, you can also, when you’re just starting build it as you go. Whether you’re live launching at first, which I do suggest you do like a live promotion because those have the reputation though of performing better than a funnel.

A funnel is tough to get right. And there’s also something to be said about the live component, um, of live launches that they just tend to have better conversion rates.

So in the beginning, even if you want a funnel, I still would say start with a live [00:11:00] launch. You can kind of be writing those emails on the fly a little bit, and if that helps you get through writing, what’s gonna ultimately make up your funnel for the very first time then that’s okay. Do a live launch where you kind of were creating things on the fly and then go back and put all those emails together and then you can turn it into the first version of your funnel.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. So, okay, so you’re saying that somebody could, you know, promote, let’s say, uh, enrollment in their course for a few weeks or something like this, using like bonuses and urgency and discounts and all that. Like there’s gonna be an expiration and then take what they’ve learned from that live launch. As well as perhaps like the assets, the emails and things that they created for that, and turn that into more of an evergreen funnel.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Vander Wielen: What would you, what stuff would you look at, so like after you’d run that live and try that live the first time, let’s say. What things are you [00:12:00] looking at or changing to go to evergreen? Like what are the big differences there besides obviously just like the removal of the obvious language of the dates and things like that.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, I mean, for step one, that is kind of all you’re really doing. You’re removing anything that’s like, okay, on June 23rd the card is closing at midnight.

It’s more like when this countdown timer hits zero, the cart is closing, so you’re removing stuff like that. Um, if it is a webinar funnel, you know, you obviously don’t have the webinar invites. You’re kind of ditching those. You’re just gonna have like the first confirmation email after someone joins the webinar and then whatever show up emails were probably happening within like the first 24 hours. Typically, you know, those webinar softwares, you can choose to join the webinar like in 15 minutes or like right now or like tomorrow.

So as long as you have those show up emails set up, you’re good. You can’t use add to calendar or anything like that anything that’s like time specific and then [00:13:00] the same promo emails, so that’s like step one.

Um, and then from there, what you’re kind of paying attention to as leads come in is, where do things maybe start declining? Looking at the open rates, where are people kind of dropping off, but also kind of keeping in mind there are some typical things that are likely to happen anyway, like after email, like three or four, they are likely to drop off.

So keeping that in mind and just seeing like what subject lines do I need to optimize and make a little more compelling. And then which emails are getting the click? If there are certain emails that you’re like, oh my gosh, like this is getting us significantly more clicks, then look at the body of that email. Like, what are you hitting on? What topics are you hitting on? And do you need to ditch one of the other emails that’s not getting as many clicks and talk either about a similar topic or maybe it’s the tone of that email, maybe that email was very like tough love, [00:14:00] and it’s like, oh, okay. People respond well to tough love.

You know, for you and I when we talk about your funnel, like we’re always talking about kind of these two avatars. The person who is just starting to start an online business. And they’re in that research phase. They haven’t even sold a thing yet. They’re just trying to get their ducks in a row. And then there’s the person who’s already in online business and they’re feeling paranoid because they know they don’t have the legal stuff in place.

So if we were to see, oh hey, like the emails that really lean more heavily into like the beginner, those are just getting more engagement, then maybe we can make the call to redo all of the sales emails to really speak to that avatar more strongly.

Sam Vander Wielen: As you’re, so, as you’re suggesting to listeners that, you know, maybe you would test out live launching, or what I call sprints to the, to the list of like just concentrating on talking about your product for a few weeks and seeing what happens. Just to like get your feet wet and like get comfortable talking about your product to just go like all in for a couple of weeks. How do you see people who maybe have smaller audiences who are starting out? How does this play out for them?

Katelyn Collins: Yeah. I mean the reality is when audience is small, when your list is small, yeah.

You likely will not make a ton of sales from your email list. When we live launch, we can expect one or 2% of sales. So sometimes the fact of the matter is. You do kind of need to sell something. A little more high ticket, a little more high touch. . Like when I first launched, launched my course, so outta my client services, I have a course, and of course I wanted that to just like take over and bring in all of my revenue.

But the reality is, is like I got a handful of sales or as I was creating that course, I needed to do one-on-one mentorship, which was more expensive, and I still do that to supplement course sales.

So is that an option for you as you create your course? Like if you’ve been working with clients one-on-one, you might just need to have to like stick with that for like a little while more if you’re serving clients in the background.

Maybe you’re a service provider who wants to switch over to a course. You gotta keep those clients. Like, I actually made a mistake. I dropped my clients way too soon. It’s like gearing up for my course launch and it was going well at first, but then it’s like, okay, it kind of drops off if you’re not building your list.

So in the very beginning, like you might just have to focus on higher ticket stuff or the other things that you’re doing to, to make money and focus hard on building that list.

It’s not all a numbers game, but a piece of it is a numbers game. Like you wanna get that list up. Like I always tell people who are thinking of going into the digital space or sell a course or something like that, this is a good idea for you if you are open to knowing that your job every single day for like your entire career in this business is going to be building an email list. So if you love building an email list, like then you can be a course creator, you can, you can use a funnel, but like if you don’t like that, then this isn’t for you.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. I think that people don’t understand that. I often share that statistic about the one to 2%. Uh, conversion and people, that’s a very like, sobering statistic ’cause a lot of people think it’s gonna be a fast track to like, oh, I just like ma, like this girl on Instagram said that you can like make $10,000 a month just selling courses. And I’m like, yeah, who are you selling it to? So you have to have people, right. But I. I think also going back to what you shared at the beginning, this is why it’s so important that you can also use a funnel as, as a lead magnet builder, as an email list builder, right? Like if you have, and for anybody who read my book, you know that I write about Katelyn and, and a concept a lot, but I write about one of these concepts that you talked about, or you taught me a long time ago, which you had taught me in the concept of, of like, uh, no-brainer bonuses when we, when we were building out funnels. And I translated that into like, what about if we apply that same logic to freebies, where it’s just [00:18:00] like, why wouldn’t you opt into this thing? It’s so good. Right? And then that brings so many people into your email list.

So I would encourage everyone listening too, to be thinking about, like you could build a, maybe your first funnel if you’re starting out and you’re like, I have no one to sell to, maybe your first one is this like no-brainer freebie that is attracting lots of new people into your business.

Katelyn Collins: And if you start with like what you think is a no-brainer freebie. That’s awesome. That’s a great first drop. But from there, if you’re like, oh, it didn’t work as well as I thought. Create that freebie based off of what everyone is telling you that they were searching for when they first came across you.

Because I could very much have a freebie that’s like something that I think is very, sexy. But I know from doing market research, at least on the course side of my business, I looked into what people are searching like as beginner copywriters and it’s just like, it’s simply how to start copywriting.

And like, and then as I, as I do market research, everyone’s like, I just wanna know how to start. It’s so, can I just, how do you start? Like, can, can someone just give us the steps of like how to start and so it’s so boring, but the name of my guide that leads people ultimately to my course is the How to Start Copywriting Video Guide.

And it’s like, okay, that’s like kind of SEO focus, that’s like I’m, I’m matching, I’m message matching is what it’s called with like what the action was that my prospect was taking before. So yeah. So you might go through like a few iterations of what those no-brainer freebies are, but. Yeah, no, no brainer freebies are totally where it’s at.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that’s what I wrote about ’em. Um, when people are starting out though, and it’s like they don’t have customers to tap into yet to ask like, what kind of freebie, what have attracted you? Or like something like that, or to get all this messaging from where, what are some like market research steps that you encourage people to take on the front end?

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, say like a yoga practitioner or yoga teacher, something like that. And there are books about yoga. So this is another hack I learned from my coach, Joanna Wiebe, go on Amazon, go search yoga books or yoga for beginners, if you are targeting beginner yogis or people who wanna learn yoga and look at the reviews.

But you have got to be disciplined. Keep your butt in seat and keep on digging. ’cause you will find voice of customer data. Yeah. Like you will find the people who are like, I was really, you know, struggling with like, how to start, I didn’t wanna go to like a, a class because I didn’t wanna feel embarrassed, Like I’m just starting and so this book was so helpful because like the first thing I was really hoping to learn was yada, yada, yada and it helped me with yada, yada yada. So now you know, some pain points, you know, some embarrassments, you know, some anxieties, um, you know, some desires. So that is one way. And then another way is, you know. Where else are potential audience members hanging out? You know, whether that’s Facebook groups or Instagram, everyone listening knows like who their potential audience likely is.

Go find them out in the wilds. And even if it’s like super weird, we’re like, Hey, I know we don’t know each other, but like I can see like you’re interested in X, Y, and z.

I’m hoping, you know, sell a program about X, Y, and Z, would you be willing to like just hop on a 30 minute call where I can like talk to you about whatever, and maybe you give them an incentive, like a, a Starbucks gift card or something like that. I was building my audience. I had a Facebook group, so I tapped my Facebook group before I even created my course, and I was like, Hey, who is willing to go on like a 30 minute call with me? And I learned so much. It changed the way I marketed my course. It changed who I was talking to, you know? ’cause usually people create courses based off of a problem that they personally were dealing with. So] I originally started just talking to me and the person who I was.

But when I went on these calls with like eight awesome people, I’m like, oh my avatar really is someone different. Mm. And that still to this day proves to be true.

I guess I was in a very unique situation and I thought everyone was like me, but they’re not. And you learn that through voice of customer research, and when you weave that into your copy and into everything you create, it works. Where if you don’t have all of those preliminary steps, all that foundation. Your funnel’s not gonna work, your freebie’s not gonna work. Um, as well as it could.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that was some really bad, like marketing advice we were served back, back in the day where it was like, your avatar is you six months ago. Like, she shops where you shop. Does she love kittens? If you love kittens, like it was just this like kind of dumb stuff where I was like, this has nothing to do with who your avatars And like, I have never been in my. People’s shoes. And so like that was never going to work for somebody like me. And maybe people listening too, but I think it’s so much deeper than that.

And you’ve been really helpful in, in helping me to discover this of like, you need to have conversation, you need to have like real contact and experience in, in you talking to people, like in the, the pick your brain sessions, it’s basically practice coaching. And so you then got really familiar with. What are their questions? ’cause that is exactly my point. It’s like we need to be focused on what your customer’s questions are, not what your questions are about things. Or if you cured your Hashimoto’s, great, maybe you knew a ton about it and that’s how you went about it. Your ideal customer probably doesn’t, and that’s why they’re looking to you.

And so like going about it, the way you went about it to me doesn’t make sense. You wanna know how are they, like, what are they thinking about? What are they worried about? What are they wanting out of all of this? Yeah. So, yeah, I actually think it’s a really good way to go about it.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah. And I also noticed like where everyone like lit up with some of the information. I was telling them, and I noticed that on almost all of those calls, like when it finally got down to it where they were asking me questions, I was regurgitating the same information, and that information ended up pretty much creating my webinar. That I still use to this day, and that came from those calls.

So the most clarifying thing that you can do is talk to your audience. Yeah. I mean, I cannot write one email for you from my brain. I have all of my voice of customer data docs up, or I’ve come fresh off of a customer interview and one of my colleagues said this, and it’s so perfect. Like, your copy is not just written, it’s constructed.

And all of my copy is constructed based off of what people are saying. So that is gonna help you with writer’s block. Like that is gonna help you know what to write. So many people are like, if I’m writing emails for a funnel, like how do I even know what to write? Like that is it, it is done for you. It is done for you when you are talking to people and doing voice of customer, uh, yeah. Research and interviews and all that stuff.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. Yeah. Like they all just said it. Now you just need to take it and make it for the masses, essentially. Right. But we, we see patterns and what people say often to us about how they were feeling before, how they felt after, like what they were looking for, what they were really worried about. I think so much of what you’re hitting on too, like. I called them like mind blown moments because I, you know what I had this similar experience as you when I was having free calls back in the day, like eight years ago. And I would say something and that would be like a mind blown moment for the person I was talking to and I was like, wait, that was like revolutionary for you. ’cause that. I thought that was like a known thing or I didn’t think it was that important. So I really paid attention to like, oh, that’s what you care about. Like that was the thing that really unlocked it for you.

It doesn’t match up with what I think or even what I think they should be worried about, but that’s not what matters. And so this is where I always talk about the, the mac and cheese and broccoli because I’m like, I need to figure out what their mac and cheese moments are like, what they really, really want and how they’re talking about it. And then I just like slip in the broccoli as we go along and I’m like, by the way, I put a whole lot of broccoli in there for you and like you’re welcome for your vitamins. . That’s the way I think of it. Yeah.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah. And I, I do that too. It’s like I don’t want to teach people how to start copywriting. But that’s the mac and cheese that I get them in on. And then I make sure that I’m strategic about the broccoli when they come in to this 25 minute video guide where from the get go, my tips, I’m reverse engineering. Yeah. Like I’m reverse engineering from where they’re starting to where I want them to go. And my course is helping aspiring freelancers become launch copywriters for course creators. That’s so specific, but like my, my initial spot for me is kind of general how to start copywriting. And that’s not gonna be for everyone. For me, it just is because that’s what people are searching.

So now in that first video with me. I have to like prescribe one of the steps to be, choose high paying industries because I’m trying to get them closer to wanting to write launch copy for course creators.

And so I teach them about, you know, the high paying industries are SaaS and the online course world. So we, we are helping them towards our solution. Sam Vander Wielen: You’re illuminating something for them Yeah. That they didn’t know existed before they came to you. I mean, you’re showing them what’s possible.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah. And it also happens to get them closer to the sale. And anyone who’s listening to this is like, oh, that’s sneaky, that’s marketing. Like I believe in my course so much. I believe in like helping people to the solution of writing for course creators. Yeah, I, my heart does break for my audience where they’re like not making enough to make ends meet and stuff like that. So yeah. Illuminating, like helping them towards your solution. I am still just such a huge believer in like, [00:28:00] this is helpful. Um, I know when I was illuminated inside people’s funnels, it changed my life ultimately. And for your product, you’re helping people like avoid some really complicated stuff and some worse nightmares scenarios. So I’m so excited to help people get to the purchase. That’s why I love marketing.

Sam Vander Wielen: I mean, me too, and I. I mean, I try to give people agency, like I do think there has to be a certain point in which people, there’s self-responsibility as long as you are not lying, you know, not delivering what you’re, you know, over promising, under delivering something like this.

But like, I think you and I both take a lot of pride in what we do and you’re, you’re so right. And this is really important for listeners to know is like, ’cause sometimes they wanna skip ahead to like, the good part where the, the funnel is up and working and making sales in their sleep and all of that.

Part of the reason why, my funnel makes sales in my sleep is because the product, not only is the funnel good obviously, but the product really works, right? And so, which then helps because like when Katelyn goes to interview those people for the purchasers, for example, they’re happy, they’ve had a positive experience in it. They recommend it to other people, which sends more people our way. And it just like keeps snowballing. But it also really allows me to confidently show up. Every single day, um, and feel really good about what I do. And so I think you kinda have to like start there and then I kind of give myself some grace as to like, this is how marketing works.

And like, as I always say, like, Target doesn’t get crap for having a billboard on the highway and being like, that’s manipulative. And I’m like, that’s exactly what they’re doing. Why is it any different than what we do? You know? Yeah.

Katelyn Collins: And I also wanna hit on like. I know a lot of people maybe are having that anxiety of like, oh, marketing, like salesy, um, whatever anxieties that they’re having.

This is where the majority of people I don’t think really understand. This is why it’s really worth learning about copywriting, because as someone who’s a copywriter for, I’ve been a copywriter for eight years, I have a ton of education in this. It’s not just about high pressure urgency. It is not about making the wrong person buy. That is not what these funnels are doing. That is not what marketing is like you. You learn that it is, as Ry Schwartz and Joanna Wiebe say, it’s coaching the decision and you are only selling to the right per person. And if your copy is like written correctly, you are helping that person make their own decision with agency.

Mm-hmm. If you are like just selling anything to anybody, like you’re doing it wrong. And that also is gonna hurt your reputation in the end. So it’s not even gonna be sustainable long term. Um, but there’s so much that is going on from a copywriting standpoint that is just helping people over their mental blocks, helping people over their hurdles, and for the person who is not ready for that. Then they’re not gonna respond by purchasing. Yeah.

Sam Vander Wielen: And I think it takes a lot of work on your end as the business owner to like get to build that confidence muscle even before you’re making money, that you only want people who really want to be there, who are like the right fit and that kind of stuff.

Like I, I always am encouraging early customers, even before they’re making money to just like let go of people who are not the right fit, even though you feel like. I can’t really afford to say no to this person, say no to that person. I swear it’s better.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah. And people, you might have to learn it. Yeah. If you haven’t learned it, and you might learn it the hard way, you’ll know, because I’ve totally worked with people by accident. Like yeah. They just come in and I’m like, this is not the right fit, and they’re not doing the work every week. And then for me, it’s like I’m dreading showing up to their sessions because I’m like, I can’t move them forward. They’re not making stuff happen. We have nothing to work off of. Like, yeah, yeah,

Sam Vander Wielen: yeah. It’s not good. Nobody wants that. So you, you mentioned how you’ve been doing this for eight years and I was wondering, something I feel like I’m seeing a lot of chatter about, I was reading like a bunch of Substack articles about this this morning.

Just globally, you hear all this like online businesses changing or you hear things more drastic of like, online businesses dead or webinars are dead. Or like, no one’s doing well and live launches aren’t going well and all this kind of stuff. I was just wondering from your perspective, like what are some things that you’re seeing and doing to change the tone in your marketing, or are you doing any tone change in marketing when you’re writing funnels for, for me, for other people or even for yourself.

Katelyn Collins: So my first initial thought is like, it’s making me giggle that everyone’s having these freakouts and I think it just is a testament to how young online,

Sam Vander Wielen: Hmm.

Katelyn Collins: Like our type of online business is. Because everything that people are kind of freaking out about that is just normal. That is just like life. That is just marketing. That is just the job of marketers to be like, okay, people are not responding to this. Now, how about this? Like absolutely everything evolves.

So if you’ve been in marketing for a really long time, you know that. Okay. Like it’s, this is, this is just, this is the name of the game. Buyers are always hesitant. That’s the whole job of overcoming objections, overcoming anxieties.

So like in a lot of my clients’ emails, I will acknowledge like the economy, acknowledge like, you know, hey, things are crazy right now.

And like kind of like naturally weave that in there. I’m never going to ignore reality, but it’s not like it is this drastic crazy thing.

Other things that are going on, we all know Instagram, it’s just so hard. And I was watching, you know, a interview with Adam. I never know how to say his last name, Mosseri [00:34:00] or whatever. And even he was like, oh yeah, couldn’t, I mean, he could give some like speculation as to why, but he even was also like.

Yes, some people are, it’s not affecting them and they’re still getting incredible engagement. And then some people it’s just like totally tanked and it’s very obvious like that it’s tanked for them.

So. Like, yeah, you do kind of need to pivot there and be like, all right, so if I can’t rely on Instagram as much, like you’re just gonna go have to go to a different list building method. That is life. Like everything’s evolved. Yeah. Like we had flip phones forever ago and that changed and we all evolved with it and now we have other things we did.

So like. Yeah, it’s just always just noticing and, and it’s not, I mean, yeah, you wanna read and you wanna know what’s going on and keep a pulse on things, but it’s also just being very real about like, what’s going on in front of you, Are like your emails like totally tanking. Mm-hmm. Like, did this launch not go well?

Like, dig in. Where are your leads coming from? You know, are they coming from a high quality place? Are they coming from a low quality place? Okay. Oh, it’s a low quality, what is, what is the reason? And then respond from there as a critically thinking marketer. Yeah.

Sam Vander Wielen: It’s, it, it’s getting kind of further along, more advanced funnel stuff.

But it is interesting to see a lot of people are of the opinion that like getting leads from social media are low quality needs leads because the, these people have been kind of trained on quick hits, quick wins, little tidbits of info, and now you’re like asking ’em to go give you an hour long on a video and then spend $2,000 or you know, something like this and you’re like, that doesn’t work as well.

I mean. As you know, we do very well with that. So I’m like, we’re always an example of like, I, I don’t know. I could understand maybe it not working for everyone, but it does work for us. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t

Katelyn Collins: I don’t believe in blanket statements. Same. I guess that’s the only blanket statement I believe in. Yeah, that’s So I think it’s like ludicrous, like for someone to just be like X, Y, or Z just doesn’t work. Yeah. Anymore. It’s so much more nuanced and something that’s like failing for maybe a lot of people. It could be for so many reasons, but then there are other people where it’s not tanking. Um, so number one, it’s like, yeah, just ignore the blanket statement, be aware of them because there’s probably some truth to it, but it’s not as true as just like this very extreme statement.

Some of the people who are like continuing to spread that are saying like. Whatever is dead. Yeah. Like they might be trying to sell you a solution based off of that. Not saying it’s bad, like I want them to sell their solution, but you know, in copywriting in our world, a lot of people are educated and instructed to write very.

Polarizing statements, which can often come off as blanket statements, and so that’s like really muddled into our world. I think right now too. And has an effect on things you always talk about, like keep in your own zone to an extent about things other than being ignorant at just kind of what I said before. Look. At what’s going on, and just try your best to improve from there.

Sam Vander Wielen: Especially in that building phase, it’s important to have your blinders on and like, I, I think just like when you’re in that building phase and you really need to be tuning in to your audience, like all the things that Katelyn and I have been talking about today of like listening to your purchasers, like to getting to know the, or doing some of your own market research, like getting to know your ideal customer, not what, like so and so guru has to say about what works for her audience. ‘Cause that doesn’t necessarily translate for yours. So that’s where I like, really believe in this. I also just wanna say before I have one final question for you, like that I, I just see all this chatter sometimes, and I, and I especially see people joining in on that chatter who are newer in business and maybe aren’t up and running and don’t have all the things going on that, that you and I have been talking about in this episode. And I’m just like, how is this helping you?

Like we can sit here and talk about how like Instagram isn’t what it used to be in 2017. How is that helping, like this is the situation we have now. What do you do? I think you were 100% right, that this is the, in my opinion, the gift of being an entrepreneur is that it is never stale and that you have an opportunity every day to like experiment and see how this thing goes.

And I think personally that is the biggest perk of the job. So like start embracing that and stop being like, it is not helpful to sit here and just talk about how things used to be, or that you heard that webinars are dead. It’s like, great. Have you tried it? Like, or if you wanna just like buy into the story that webinars are dead. Don’t do a freaking webinar, but like, go do what you wanna do. You know? So it’s like, I, I just think it’s like a lot of, like a waste of time. Yeah.

Katelyn Collins: And get, get out of your, I don’t know, there’s probably a saying here, but get out of your bubble. Like that’s another for thing I talk about Jo so much because I just love her. And she’s just been my number one educator, um, in my copywriting career.

You know, but in her program, like she brings in people from like all sorts of industries and, you know, they’re all different types of people. And, you know, someone was coming in once and, and was talking about how great LinkedIn newsletters was building his list.

Like crazy. Yeah. But our worlds, is like this course creator space, they don’t, they probably don’t know that that exists. That was going off like gangbusters for him and for a lot of people. Yeah. So like get outta your bubble, learn from other industries. Learn from completely different types of people.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah. And do what excites you? ’cause like the dangerous part of, of what you just said is that people will then be like, but I heard LinkedIn but I heard Substack, but I heard Instagram. But now TikTok and like, so yeah, also pick the thing, try the thing for consistently long enough and like I’m always an encourager too, of picking the thing that you like, like do like love Substack and you hang out there.

’cause I think you’re gonna do well there in the sense that you understand like kind of how it works and like all the perks and features and all that. Just like someone who’s like obsessed with Instagram and like video creation or TikTok or whatever, like. You would probably do great there. Mm-hmm. But I’m glad you brought up Jo, uh, who I’m also a big fan of by the way. But, uh, I, one of the things I get asked about the most, because I’m always preaching online business owners becoming better copywriters not to become a copywriter professionally, like you guys, were gonna leave that to the pros. But because we are in our day-to-day online businesses, we are writing so much, right?

Whether it’s short form, you know, captions type things or uh, our weekly newsletters to our list. What are some places like or resources that people can go just kind of everyday online business owners can go to become better copywriters themselves in their own businesses? Yeah.

Katelyn Collins: Every, for everyday online business owners, I would suggest Copy School by Copy Hackers.

um, it’s a beast of a program, but if you are just like setting the practice of like watching one lesson per day. You are getting the absolute best education that I think you could get. Um, I did that program years ago. I still have it. I still pop in there and find new stuff. Like I’m still learning underneath Jo and her advanced program and going through two classes a week. And it’s just, I’m always learning. So they also have a great YouTube channel. So if you look for copy hackers on YouTube, those, those are great, but you do need to likely invest in education to get like a, a really good one. But yeah, to me they’re the cream of the crop for business owners. You’re gonna be overwhelmed when you get in there, but it doesn’t matter, like start learning it like Jo’s the best.

Sam Vander Wielen: Uh, I, I am somebody who reads copy hacker stuff frequently. I had did that years and years and years ago when I started. And my best tip too is to just take like one little like tip or like, I don’t know, strategy or something like that and then start practicing it.

Like I remember years and years and years and years ago re uh, reading a Copy Hacker’s. Blog post about using like the transition, like transitional language for example. Like Yes. Uh, you know that I’m like the queen of telling a story. It’s about something totally random and then being like, what does this peanut that I found in the park have to do with legally protecting your business?

Let me tell you. And then like transitioning, I got that from Copy Hackers and like, I remember reading an article in their site about it and then like just started practicing doing that and like sometimes it landed, sometimes it didn’t. But that’s the only way you know, is through, through doing so. Yeah.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, if you don’t go and practice it, you’re gonna forget what the tip was. That’s the best way to like cement it. So this takes discipline, like you just, it takes discipline, but yeah, do it. Do one thing at a time. Make sure you make a point of practicing it that week.

Sam Vander Wielen: Absolutely. Well, thank you Katelyn so much.

Will you tell everybody where they can go find you and learn more from you and, and if there’s anything that you have to, to give them.

Katelyn Collins: Yeah, so, so if you go to Katelyn writes.com/sam, so Katelyn is K-A-T-E-L-Y-N-W-R-I-T-E s.com/SAM. I have two freebies on there, which I know is breaking the copywriting rule of one. But, um, so if you’re an aspiring freelancer and you wanna learn how to write for course creators or people with programs like yours, Sam, that How to Start Copywriting Guide is right there. I highly recommend going into that. And then also if you are an online business owner. It’s really, the freebie is a little more geared towards more advanced, but I’m a conversion rate optimization specialist, that’s also how you and I work together, Sam. So I’ve got a workshop there that talks about how to optimize your funnel, and it really goes into my approach with you.

It’s the approach that you and I use, it’s what we’ve been using forever. It teaches you a little bit about something called the small snowballs method. So it’s a really cool little workshop and obviously you can get on my list and if I do say so myself, I think the emails I send are pretty good. I have a very high open rate. I am pretty proud of.

Sam Vander Wielen: Yeah, you should be. And your emails are very good. That’s awesome. Thank you so much. I’ll make sure I share all the links down below so that you don’t even have to type it in.

Just go click in the show notes, um, or in the description. And we really appreciate you being here, Katelyn. I have a feeling you taught people a lot today.

Katelyn Collins: Thank you. Thanks for having me, and thanks everyone for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to the On Your Terms® podcast. Make sure to follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. You can also check out all of our podcast episodes, show notes, links, and more at samvanderwielen.com/podcast. You can learn more about legally protecting your business and take my free legal workshop, Five Steps To Legally Protect and Grow Your Online Business at Samvanderwielen.com and to stay connected and follow along, follow me on Instagram at samvanderwielen and send me a DM to say hi.